Don TLR
Active Member
I get a kick out of the people with 1 post coming in here saying they're an early holder and selling. Trolling much..
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N5329K
Active Member
Were you planning on parking your Model 3 in the driveway or do you prefer to use roads?
Robin
Bridor
Member
The IRS does not pay for roads - the gas tax pays for roads. The IRS was started when they needed to raise money for a world war - at the time, it was stated that it was temporary only. However, once a government starts taking in money, they hate to shut it down. Another little thing that is not known is this from Karl Marx about the conversion to communism (Communist Manifesto, Page 26):
"Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. "
If the federal government wanted a fair tax, it should have been a flat tax (such as 10%) - it is a percentage - those that make more would contribute more. Instead, we have this overly complex system that gives a lot of people jobs... Just food for thought - all knowledge is desirable and can make us more enlightened.
"Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. "
If the federal government wanted a fair tax, it should have been a flat tax (such as 10%) - it is a percentage - those that make more would contribute more. Instead, we have this overly complex system that gives a lot of people jobs... Just food for thought - all knowledge is desirable and can make us more enlightened.
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
This isn't the case any more in TX. Tesla has now contracted with a 3rd party to handle to titling, registration and taxes. Should be more transparent but seems receiving the license plates still takes extra time.
read more in this thread:
New Tesla - TX registration process not ready for prime time
ummgood
Member
Thanks for the update. That is interesting. If they are having trouble doing this on time for the amount of S and X vehicles I imagine it will be a cluster when the Model 3 starts shipping at full volume.
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
At least they probably have a few months to work out kinks before any get delivered here.
BluestarE3
Active Member
- Tesla SSO - Login
- Log-in with your Tesla account and password, if necessary
- Click MANAGE
- On the line "To cancel a reservation", submit a request.", click the link and submit the cancellation request
- After a period of time, you will get $1,000. Perfectly legal.
I'm an EC dual reservation holder with delivery slated for middle 2018, and was curios to see what people with earlier delivery dates were planning to do with theirs.
I'm sure there is a market for this, but didn't know if the demand would convince anyone to sell. If you did, what would you expect to receive as a premium? I've seen 3k floated around on some forums, but this seems like ... well ... like not very much.
I'm sure there is a market for this, but didn't know if the demand would convince anyone to sell. If you did, what would you expect to receive as a premium? I've seen 3k floated around on some forums, but this seems like ... well ... like not very much.
Will be dumb to try to sell. Why? Cause you cant transfer a reservation without prior written consent from Tesla. This squashes the rampant ebay sales that would occur.
$7500 tax credit is tied to the BUYER only. Unless your willing to pass on the credit to somebody else, it wont be a deal for them, or for you to wait a year to file your taxes.
Cancel your reservation if you dont want the car
$7500 tax credit is tied to the BUYER only. Unless your willing to pass on the credit to somebody else, it wont be a deal for them, or for you to wait a year to file your taxes.
Cancel your reservation if you dont want the car
Just to clarify, I'm not wanting to flip either of my cars (besides, I doubt by the middle of the year many people would be desperate for them). Purely just interested in what those with really early reservations were doing. I know that the tax credit is non-transferrable, and to really make a profit you'd have to list it around 60k, so the 10k premium is more in line with what I had figured.
And I wouldn't be surprised if there was a market for that range on the 3, for a couple of reasons. First of all, the hype around the car and general impatience seems like it is gonna make people more willing to pay a premium and put it firmly in the mid-luxury price range. And I know Tesla are very worried about this cannibalizing Model S sales (hence their efforts to upsale anyone and everyone to an S), which makes me think that people may underestimate the market of people with 55-65k who would rather have a Model 3.
Since the Model 3 price point is higher than people anticipated, at least until they start producing the smaller battery options (which I believe is slated for Q4-2018 or Q1-2019?), a lot of people are going to end up paying 50k for the car. I know both of mine will be. However, if you wanted to upgrade to a used Model S and still have the FSD capability (which seems like a huge selling point and reason not to drop down to a 2015), you'd have to pick up a 2016 MS, which means you're looking at a minimum of 65k (used). So if you were desperate for a car sooner rather than later, you could have a new 50k M3 (plus whatever premium and without tax credit), or a used 2016 MS for 65k or greater (used, without tax credit, less time on the warranty, and probably smaller battery if at that price point).
So the whole argument of if you're going to pay a premium, why not upgrade to a Model S seems a little bit weak to me, since to really take full advantage of that, you'd be looking at upwards of 15k, and realistically closer to the 70k range. I think that the market wanting a car with FSD capability sooner rather than later, but not prepared to pay 70k or above is larger than people might expect. The jump from a car hovering around 50k versus 70k seems like a big leap to make; 70k just seems a whole hell of a lot closer to 100k than 50k. Don't underestimate the logical fallacies.
Am I missing something?
And I wouldn't be surprised if there was a market for that range on the 3, for a couple of reasons. First of all, the hype around the car and general impatience seems like it is gonna make people more willing to pay a premium and put it firmly in the mid-luxury price range. And I know Tesla are very worried about this cannibalizing Model S sales (hence their efforts to upsale anyone and everyone to an S), which makes me think that people may underestimate the market of people with 55-65k who would rather have a Model 3.
Since the Model 3 price point is higher than people anticipated, at least until they start producing the smaller battery options (which I believe is slated for Q4-2018 or Q1-2019?), a lot of people are going to end up paying 50k for the car. I know both of mine will be. However, if you wanted to upgrade to a used Model S and still have the FSD capability (which seems like a huge selling point and reason not to drop down to a 2015), you'd have to pick up a 2016 MS, which means you're looking at a minimum of 65k (used). So if you were desperate for a car sooner rather than later, you could have a new 50k M3 (plus whatever premium and without tax credit), or a used 2016 MS for 65k or greater (used, without tax credit, less time on the warranty, and probably smaller battery if at that price point).
So the whole argument of if you're going to pay a premium, why not upgrade to a Model S seems a little bit weak to me, since to really take full advantage of that, you'd be looking at upwards of 15k, and realistically closer to the 70k range. I think that the market wanting a car with FSD capability sooner rather than later, but not prepared to pay 70k or above is larger than people might expect. The jump from a car hovering around 50k versus 70k seems like a big leap to make; 70k just seems a whole hell of a lot closer to 100k than 50k. Don't underestimate the logical fallacies.
Am I missing something?
Just to re-emphasize: the tax credit is not only non-transferrable, it's also not legally claimable by anybody buying to sell. If the numbers of cars are high, you could expect the IRS to be more eagle-eyed. You need the VIN to claim and there's a central database of title information so they'd be able to get the dates of original purchase, of sale and the odometer reading at both points.
(Small battery begins later this year, most deliveries begin first half of 2018.)
So, you're thinking that there will be some kind of significant number of people who:
(1) are very enthusiastic about Model 3
(2) but weren't willing to queue at a store on the reservation day
(3) wouldn't rather give the money to Tesla rather than a scalper
(4) don't require dual motor or performance
(5) are willing to overpay by a substantial amount to get a non-creditable car early rather than
(a) pay MSRP for the same model with fixes to early problems OR
(b) pay about the same amount for the dual motor performance version with fixes to early problems
(6) don't already have an S or X that they're driving anyway
(7) aren't willing to get an earlier used S to tide them over
(8) aren't willing to lease a Bolt, Volt, Leaf or other PEV to tide them over
?
I would have thought that scalpers would learn their lesson with what happened with early Tesla reservations in China.
First off, really appreciate the thought out responses and good conversation.
Not to be too reliant on personal anecdote, I do know quite a few people who are very excited about the Model 3 but who were unable or unwilling to queue. There will be people who would be willing to pay more to get the car early rather than sit through the inconvenience of queuing at an event like that. I certainly don't think that will be a majority, but some people will pay to avoid inconvenience. This obviously really toes the line between people who would just buy a new S, but its not impossible that they exist. Not a good thing to bank on, but we aren't really creating a large market are we? There might just be 5 or 10 people who fit all these requirements, but that still means people will try... but I digress. Regardless, I think there are plenty of people who want this car enough to overpay if it means they can have it sooner, especially considering Tesla's long standing difficulties getting things out to meet production deadlines.
As far as giving money to scalper versus Tesla, the argument could be made that a sale is a sale, and either way Tesla is pocketing some of that money. I'm inclined to think that unless you're a Tesla acolyte (in which case you would have queued up early on), that many buyers will not take this into consideration. I could be wrong, but that's just my natural assumption.
As well, I don't think that there is going to be a huge overlap between consumers who are eager to get their hands on this as soon as possible and those concerned about early problems/bugs. I definitely understand those points and am inclined to agree (otherwise I'd be trying to underhandedly swap my reservations with other people), but I also would be willing to bet a good chunk of people will let their impatience get the better of their sense...but perhaps that's just down to my pessimistic perception of people as a whole.
In regards to the last point, I know that I would personally be hesitant to pay 55K for a used S for a year, and then bank on recouping a sizable chunk of that to reinvest on a 3. It just seems like a lot of uncertainty in that (I'm not sure how the S will depreciate once the 3 hits the market), and if they don't recoup 45k for that next year, then they they're looking at spending the 50k a fully loaded model 3 would cost, plus whatever they lose from the S (or for that matter, whatever the lease of another PEV ends up costing them), so the cost for the premium would appear to be slightly more reasonable.
I know I personally would not want to drive a PEV other than a Tesla (and I'm not a previous owner), so I have zero interest in a leaf/bolt/what have you. If I were to go out and total my car tomorrow, what would you think the best course of action is? I want a car asap, and am still willing to pay 50-60k, but am priced out of a model S with FSD capability and am averse to the idea of buying it for a year and then flipping it with the hope of financing a 3. This is somewhat irrelevant in the larger scope of the conversation, as I feel pretty confident that there aren't enough cases like this to make up any real kind of market as it is obviously a very extreme and specific case, but I think it does propose an interesting conundrum.
All of the above is my actual situation at the moment, except I'm just driving a family car until my reservations come in. I spent a while researching all the different options above, and just decided the best decision would be to wait for my reservations and drive a family car in the meantime. But over the course of my time looking this up, I just did think that there must be some people who fit that criteria and wanted to see if I was way off base in that.
Dynastar
Member
The tax credit does make selling a little bit tricky, but it's still doable.
1) Buy car near end of year (initial production).
2) File taxes ASAP while car sits in your garage.
3) Sell in early 2018.
1) Buy car near end of year (initial production).
2) File taxes ASAP while car sits in your garage.
3) Sell in early 2018.
You can't claim the credit if you are buying with the intent to sell the car.
Dynastar
Member
Yeah but good luck proving intent. I bought with the intent of collecting, then changed my mind.
IRS will have hard time believing that and are you going to report the profit as income? If not that's evading tax which also meant you bought with the intent to sell.
Hi I have a Model S and have a Model 3 on order coming soon Have a March 16 order and live in San Diego so I should be getting it SOON i hope but I kind of realy like my S so thinking about selling the 3 are you interested??
DrivingTheFuture
Member
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