+1 to both. It's hard to imagine there being a serious competitor for some time. Plus Tesla was first and we are definitely in their camp. Hard to think of considering any other brand at this point.
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+1 to both. It's hard to imagine there being a serious competitor for some time. Plus Tesla was first and we are definitely in their camp. Hard to think of considering any other brand at this point.
If there was an EV SUV that was a foot shorter without the third row, that would be my choice. For instance, if Toyota had decided to release the RAV4 EV nationwide instead of limiting it to a California compliance car, I'd probably be driving that despite my overall dislike of Toyotas. It had the perfect size and capability for my needs, although AWD and DC fast charging would have been nice.
Yeah. Supposedly that will be the Model Y in a few years. Something the size of the RAV4 or CR-V :wink: would be perfect for me. My father has mentioned the RAV4 EV to me several times and each time I have to remind him that it is a California compliance car and that it doesn't have AWD. There have been rumors that Volvo will eventually be releasing an all electric XC90. It's a bit bigger than what I need on a daily basis but I would definitely consider it, especially if it had DC fast charging.
vjlvjl
Bluebird
More than likely not, altough I will look at it. I think Tesla's battery technolgy and experience is unmatched in the industry. And the free SC network is just icing on the cake. I also think its really really difficult for ICE manufacturers to change their stripes to build a first-class EV although every ICE manufacturer will soon have at least one EV offering.
Isn't Tesla's vision to inspire other manufacturers to produce viable EVs? Wouldn't you be supporting that vision by buying from another manufacturer? :wink:
That is Tesla's vision, but so far no other manufacturers show any sign of being inspired, because they aren't producing compelling BEVs. The only way we as consumers can inspire them is to vote with out wallets, and refuse to buy/lease anything that isn't a compelling BEV.
Mark Z
Active Member
No interest in any non-Supercharger EV or ICE vehicle at this time.
The Falcon Wing Doors were the major reason for the initial deposit on 2/9/12. Easy entry, more passengers, higher profile, and extra cargo space were the other reasons that night. 4 out of 5 is 80%.
Let me add points for large windshield, bioweapon defense mode, auto present doors, Ludicrous Speed, towing package and the elimination of the nose cone and dual seat colors seen in the prototype. (Not including extra points for faster acceleration and range without the weight of the 7th passenger or center seat in a 6 seat interior.)
Adds up to more than 100% using my math. Maybe Consumer Reports will go over 100% as they did with the P85D. Thank you Tesla Motors, it's good to review the added improvements since 2012.
The Falcon Wing Doors were the major reason for the initial deposit on 2/9/12. Easy entry, more passengers, higher profile, and extra cargo space were the other reasons that night. 4 out of 5 is 80%.
Let me add points for large windshield, bioweapon defense mode, auto present doors, Ludicrous Speed, towing package and the elimination of the nose cone and dual seat colors seen in the prototype. (Not including extra points for faster acceleration and range without the weight of the 7th passenger or center seat in a 6 seat interior.)
Adds up to more than 100% using my math. Maybe Consumer Reports will go over 100% as they did with the P85D. Thank you Tesla Motors, it's good to review the added improvements since 2012.
What other car manufacturer do I trust with BEV technology?
Definitely not Toyota, GM, VW/Audi/Porsche, or Honda for numerous reasons. Nissan is up there, but they insist on crippled BEVs. No Infiniti BEV. Maybe BMW.
However, no one else is using AC induction motors. They all have to develop new motors to have the power combined with efficiency that Tesla currently sells. They all have permanent magnets except for Tesla. No one else has the battery tech, with specific energy above 250 Wh/kg. No one else is bothering to do the telematics and over the air updates nearly as completely as Tesla. No one else is charging at > 100 kW and developing infrastructure to the level that Tesla is doing. No one else is pushing this hard given their resources.
I just don't see it from anyone else yet. Maybe in 2020?
Definitely not Toyota, GM, VW/Audi/Porsche, or Honda for numerous reasons. Nissan is up there, but they insist on crippled BEVs. No Infiniti BEV. Maybe BMW.
However, no one else is using AC induction motors. They all have to develop new motors to have the power combined with efficiency that Tesla currently sells. They all have permanent magnets except for Tesla. No one else has the battery tech, with specific energy above 250 Wh/kg. No one else is bothering to do the telematics and over the air updates nearly as completely as Tesla. No one else is charging at > 100 kW and developing infrastructure to the level that Tesla is doing. No one else is pushing this hard given their resources.
I just don't see it from anyone else yet. Maybe in 2020?
Most probably I would consider it. Access to Superchargers is a very important feature and adds a lot of value to the Model X. But if the price of a competitor is far less...
Merrill
Merrill
The price is not a factor if you cannot go on a trip without stopping for 6 hours to charge on a lever two charger. Even if they come out with a 300 mile Bev you would have to stay overnight to charge up.
The Leaf is using a synchronous motor which is actually more efficient but a little more complex than the asynchronous motor (used in the Model S). BMW's i3 is one of the most efficient EVs (look up it's EPA ratings) and is using a permanent magnet motor. BMW has been experimenting with EVs for a long time (Mini-e and Active E).
The Model S is, compared to other EVs, pretty inefficient. Part of it is the weight and size but part is the motor and inverter being designed for performance rather than efficiency. The different motor types have their pros and cons, but all have been around for decades and none of them is inherently better than the other.
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Price might not be a factor for you, but it is a factor for many people. May I remind you of all the Leafs, Spark EVs, RAV4 EVs, Smart E, Golf E, ...? Not everyone buys their car based on the longest trip they might have to take. If the competitor was $30k less than the Model X I can have a private limo service for all my long distance trips for the price difference.
Being able to drive electric isn't worth an arbitrary amount of money. Most people can't afford a Model X. An EV that isn't as capable for long distance trips might still be a very valid option when long distance trips are sparse and can easily be managed with a rental car or other alternatives.
Eventually I want both a Tesla and a smart electric drive. One an awesome general car, and the other for a super-cheap super-efficient daily commuter (and even current-gen smart electric cars are dirt cheap to lease at $140 a month). I imagine some competitors may stick to a small super-econo-EV low-range commuter for quite some time, especially smart. At Model 3 battery and density prices, the base MSRP of a smart electric (or similar super-econo-EV) could fall under that of a Prius C before tax incentives.
The more competition the better, but I don't think Tesla in overall value, cost, practicality, and tech/roadtripping usefulness will be exceeded any time soon. Niche vehicles may get one or maybe two of these points from Tesla but not all of them.
The more competition the better, but I don't think Tesla in overall value, cost, practicality, and tech/roadtripping usefulness will be exceeded any time soon. Niche vehicles may get one or maybe two of these points from Tesla but not all of them.
Merrill
Merrill
It is a factor, what I'm saying is related to the Model X SUV, not anything else. The question asked was if there was a comparable SUV that was a Bev, if there was it would not be any of the cars you mentioned and it would cost something close to the Model X. None of them have superchargers.The Leaf is using a synchronous motor which is actually more efficient but a little more complex than the asynchronous motor (used in the Model S). BMW's i3 is one of the most efficient EVs (look up it's EPA ratings) and is using a permanent magnet motor. BMW has been experimenting with EVs for a long time (Mini-e and Active E).
The Model S is, compared to other EVs, pretty inefficient. Part of it is the weight and size but part is the motor and inverter being designed for performance rather than efficiency. The different motor types have their pros and cons, but all have been around for decades and none of them is inherently better than the other.
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Price might not be a factor for you, but it is a factor for many people. May I remind you of all the Leafs, Spark EVs, RAV4 EVs, Smart E, Golf E, ...? Not everyone buys their car based on the longest trip they might have to take. If the competitor was $30k less than the Model X I can have a private limo service for all my long distance trips for the price difference.
CHG-ON
Still in love after all these miles
I think that the other car companies will get there if Tesla is able to prove the model. They are close, but not yet there. And when Tesla does get there, the others will be too little too late. Look at what is out there from the other guys: EVs with way too little range to make them a viable option for anybody other than those who stay close to home. They are good cars, but not great. Yes, most drivers only drive 25-40 mi/day. But that simply does not work for those who can only have one car; either through affordability or logistics.
This is the classic corporate "we aren't changing" kicking and screaming that they all do because they have little vision of the future and like it "just the the way it is". They are scared Sh-tless that their stock price will fall if they start dropping boat loads of cash into the development necessary to make EVs take off. And it will take loads of cash for them to do it on their own. Tesla does not have that fear. That's why I invested heavily in them: vision.
There are so many examples of this over the last 100 years. Just look at International Harvester that stayed in the old school as Deere cleaned their clock with innovative farming equipment (OK, I am old...) They died a sad death...and with all that heritage-Cyrus McCormick for goodness sake-the inventor of the cotton gin. And GM (saved by a bailout) and Chrysler (saved TWICE though bailouts) grrr.
Short sighted, IMO.
This is the classic corporate "we aren't changing" kicking and screaming that they all do because they have little vision of the future and like it "just the the way it is". They are scared Sh-tless that their stock price will fall if they start dropping boat loads of cash into the development necessary to make EVs take off. And it will take loads of cash for them to do it on their own. Tesla does not have that fear. That's why I invested heavily in them: vision.
There are so many examples of this over the last 100 years. Just look at International Harvester that stayed in the old school as Deere cleaned their clock with innovative farming equipment (OK, I am old...) They died a sad death...and with all that heritage-Cyrus McCormick for goodness sake-the inventor of the cotton gin. And GM (saved by a bailout) and Chrysler (saved TWICE though bailouts) grrr.
Short sighted, IMO.
TL;DR A comparable car to the X? A long time (2020 at best) as nobody seems convinced (read 'enormous capital risk' and 'opportunity cost' and 'you name it that keeps up ICE car maker CEO's up at night') that a lightweight all EV bottom pan chassis design is paramount to success. Not to mention full integration of all vehicle systems/ECU's with more environment sensors than you can shake a dead dinosaur at.
[rant on]
This thread has me thinking it could be a long time and for what reasons is that every automaker (yep, all of them) make ICE cars and are just too heavily invested. You'd need to spin off an entirely new company and start fresh. Starting a new car from a brand new chassis has to be the starting point (this is where all the goodness comes from like low center of gravity, crazy huge crumple zones for safety, stiffer chassis, vast amounts of cargo or passenger space, aerodynamic benefits, vehicle systems integration efficiencies...etc) and to date only one has done it. BMW i3/i8 BUT they designed in a REX. Think about that for a minute...an entirely new chassis from freakin' carbon fiber and they carved out room for a REX. The i3 has much less cargo room due to this even when you do not configure with a REX (I think they fill that space with foam) but nonetheless it is rendered unusable (hopefully one day they will fill it with batteries ). The i8 is basically crippled with the ICE, but anyway...
The Leaf is manly a Versa body and EV internals. Great car (we bought a 2013) but no new chassis and very old vehicle systems tech (lots of non-integration between components where one system isn't talking to another which hampers what you can do with the base car versus an optioned up car. They have had a solid 5 years to work on a EV chassis and nothing has surfaced. This is depressing.
Toyota is off in 'fool' cell land (talk about depressing) and the Volt (bless their GM hearts) is filling the gap until the Bolt (please let it not suck!) makes its debut, but in no way a X competitor until they pony up more chassis cash and carve out a CUV/SUV/cargo beast (2020 at best). At least that slide deck talks about massive reductions in battery costs (which is good they are thinking and guiding in that direction)
And then the best competitor on the horizon was Audi and now with the scandal might either double down and push it out (fingers crossed) and it will be awesome, or they might be shunned and it is lost in the wasteland of concept vaporware.
[/rantoff]
[rant on]
This thread has me thinking it could be a long time and for what reasons is that every automaker (yep, all of them) make ICE cars and are just too heavily invested. You'd need to spin off an entirely new company and start fresh. Starting a new car from a brand new chassis has to be the starting point (this is where all the goodness comes from like low center of gravity, crazy huge crumple zones for safety, stiffer chassis, vast amounts of cargo or passenger space, aerodynamic benefits, vehicle systems integration efficiencies...etc) and to date only one has done it. BMW i3/i8 BUT they designed in a REX. Think about that for a minute...an entirely new chassis from freakin' carbon fiber and they carved out room for a REX. The i3 has much less cargo room due to this even when you do not configure with a REX (I think they fill that space with foam) but nonetheless it is rendered unusable (hopefully one day they will fill it with batteries
). The i8 is basically crippled with the ICE, but anyway...The Leaf is manly a Versa body and EV internals. Great car (we bought a 2013) but no new chassis and very old vehicle systems tech (lots of non-integration between components where one system isn't talking to another which hampers what you can do with the base car versus an optioned up car. They have had a solid 5 years to work on a EV chassis and nothing has surfaced. This is depressing.
Toyota is off in 'fool' cell land (talk about depressing) and the Volt (bless their GM hearts) is filling the gap until the Bolt (please let it not suck!) makes its debut, but in no way a X competitor until they pony up more chassis cash and carve out a CUV/SUV/cargo beast (2020 at best). At least that slide deck talks about massive reductions in battery costs (which is good they are thinking and guiding in that direction)
And then the best competitor on the horizon was Audi and now with the scandal might either double down and push it out (fingers crossed) and it will be awesome, or they might be shunned and it is lost in the wasteland of concept vaporware.
[/rantoff]
Examine Walter Rippel's blog post on this subject:
Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors
Note the issues as one increases power ... Look at the highest output electric motors from Tesla's mainstream competitors. They are all low output motors.
As for overall efficiency, the weight of the battery pack has to be factored in. The EPA highway rating metric still has a significant amount of acceleration and deceleration, and yet the highway rating between the i3 and the Model S are pretty close. I suspect the 75 mph steady state consumption is far closer.
CHG-ON
Still in love after all these miles
That doesn't bother me only because I like a spartan experience. But I know that I am in the minority in this premium segment.
Except that Tesla is screwing up on a bunch of customer service stuff.
If Tesla continues to screw up that sort of stuff, it doesn't matter that the other companies are coming into the market late -- *someone* will figure out that they can eat Tesla's lunch based on service.
