How much electricity to produce gasoline?

[vfx]

Grid "purchased" electricity may be misleading since many refineries also contract with generating plants to use their petroleum byproducts, NG, and some other stuff, and then "buy" back the electricity from them. I'm not clear on how it all works but the purchased electricity may from their own plants or partnership plants that also sell electricity to the grid as a whole. Some have claimed that refineries may actually be overall net producers of electricity. It's rather confusing.

But the it still remains that any of that electricity purchased (weather they generate it in-house or not) could be used not to refine but to directly drive a LEAF.

 

[roblab]

Is it true or not, that PG&E's biggest customers are the California Refineries. I have heard that, but I can't find any documentation.

 

[JRP3]

But the it still remains that any of that electricity purchased (weather they generate it in-house or not) could be used not to refine but to directly drive a LEAF.

Yes but it's less than 1kWh per gallon, maybe around .3kWh.

 

[JRP3]

This is a relevant post by Glenn Doty of Windfuels, in response to our own dhrivnak. I think it's worth repeating.

No, the petroleum refining is not the second largest water consumer in California. That's a complete flat-out lie.

The second highest water use in any state - including Texas (the state with the most refineries) - is the electric power industry. The first highest water use in every state is always agriculture. Usually the 3rd-10th highest users don't equal the total volume of the electric power sector.


No, it does not take any electricity off the grid to refine gasoline: That's a complete flat-out lie.

The refining process produces plenty of "petroleum coke" as a waste product that is burned in cogeneration power plants, and the heat and some of the electricity is used in the refinery, but the majority of that electricity is produced and sold to the grid. The exact ratio is ~1/267th of the electricity produced by petroleum refining is used in petroleum refineries - most of this power is used for things like lighting, electronic sensors, and office climate control..

The requirement for ICP oil shale recovery is HEAT, not electricity. Ergo, they typically use burners, not electric heaters. ICP oil shale recovery is experimental, and accounts for ~1/1000000th to 1/100000th the total oil on the market in any given year. To highlight THAT as proof that electric cars are somehow more efficient than ICE vehicles shows exactly how desperate the EV industry is to find a positive comparison (The numbers actually do work out slightly in the ICP oil shale's favor when compared to EV's, btw, but it's certainly a harder case to argue than the 99.999+% of the oil on the market that is not ICP oil shale derived).

http://seekingalpha.com/article/456...l-crazy-after-five-more-years#comment-4051451

 

[Tommy]

How does Mr. Doty define "water use" In my state the electric utilities pump water to an upstream reservoir at night to be re-released during the day to make hydro power. This cycle is repeated on a daily basis. Is this considered "water use". Perhaps Robert.Boston can chime in and shed some light on where the water use is in regards to electricity production. I am having a hard time believing the electric utilities use as much water as Mr. Doty implies.

 

[dpeilow]

My local nuclear plant takes water from the sea to cool the superheated steam after passing through the turbines. The slightly warmer water is released straight back into the sea. The fish apparently love it.

Is this counted as water use?

 

[donauker]

This is a relevant post by Glenn Doty of Windfuels, in response to our own dhrivnak. I think it's worth repeating.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/456...l-crazy-after-five-more-years#comment-4051451

Mr. Doty is looking for investors in a company that wants to convert electricity into liquid fuels to burn in inefficient ICE vehicles. It would seem to me that he has a much greater vested interest in making electric vehicles look bad then even the infamous Mr. Peterson.

Why should we even consider his wild assertions as facts without requiring unbiased references to back them up?

 

[doug]

Mr. Doty is looking for investors in a company that wants to convert electricity into liquid fuels to burn in inefficient ICE vehicles.

If we at some point have a surplus of renewables, that could make sense for airplanes and rockets, but not for ground transportation.

 

[donauker]

If we at some point have a surplus of renewables, that could make sense for airplanes and rockets, but not for ground transportation.

I don't disagree with that statement. But I also wouldn't take for fact anything that Mr. Doty has to say after reading some things from his site!

I do find it rather amusing that a staunch dis-creditor on Mr. Peterson's anti-EV BS chooses this Mr. Doty's writings to support his opinion.

Just a few excerpt from Mr. Doty's Web site follow.

Pure electric vehicles will never be the first choice for most consumers as a primary vehicle due to their range restrictions. With pure EV, traffic jams and unexpected errands will result in more cars running out of power. A 40-mile range is not acceptable for most drivers. (Remember, you simply can’t stop in somewhere for a quick recharge.)

The cost savings per mile are much less than the EV advocates claim, as they still often assume an electricity cost of $0.04/kWhr when the current average residential rate is $0.12/kWh (equivalent to gasoline at $4.36/gal). A reasonable estimate is that charging costs for the Volt would be similar to fuel costs for the Prius if gasoline were $2.70/gal. If you drive the Volt 8500 miles per year (and you won’t be able to drive it much more than that without being left stranded), and gasoline is $4.70/gal, your annual savings is $400

And of course the best one must be this::tongue:

John Peterson has some of the best expertise and insights into the battery and EV markets. We highly recommend his articles, where are available here:
http://seekingalpha.com/author/john-petersen/articles

 

[dhrivnak]

Here is my response to Mr. Doty.

You are correct about agriculture, I was referring to manufacturing in the heavy use of water. According to the EPA Water & Energy Efficiency by Sectors (Oil Refineries | Region 9 : Sustainable Water Infrastructure | US EPA) oil refining uses 800 million gallons of water a day, a very large user of water. Additionally "The petroleum refining industry is one of the most energy-intensive manufacturing industries in the U.S. The industry used 3.1 quadrillion BTUs in 2002.". 3.1 quadrillion BTUs is equivalent to the power generated by 317 large coal fired plants.

Another way to look at it is 3.1 quadrillion BTU / 3413 BTU/KWh is 2.73 KWh to the 12th power. Or enough to power 200,000,000 EV's an average of 13,000 miles a year.

I am not against oil or refining or drilling. But I am for what makes sense. When I can spend $28 in electricity to save $200/month in gasoline I will do so. The reason the cost/mile is so much less for electricity versus gasoline is the electric drive train is so much more efficient.

 

[JRP3]

My local nuclear plant takes water from the sea to cool the superheated steam after passing through the turbines. The slightly warmer water is released straight back into the sea. The fish apparently love it.

Is this counted as water use?

Water "use" is tricky since the water is really just moved around. Most is recycled, (condensed), and I think maybe 2% or so is "lost" as vapor, to fall as rain somewhere else of course. Obviously in areas with plenty of water it's just not an issue.
I was more interested in his claims about electricity use in gasoline production, which I have not found any solid data to counter. Glenn is quite wrong about many of his assumptions for EV's and has an irrational dislike of them, similar to Mr. P, but his knowledge of power generation and fuel production seem to be pretty accurate.

 

[JRP3]

Another way to look at it is 3.1 quadrillion BTU / 3413 BTU/KWh is 2.73 KWh to the 12th power. Or enough to power 200,000,000 EV's an average of 13,000 miles a year.

I'm guessing his response will be something along the lines of the power consumed is almost all created from the oil that is drilled, and it's only a small portion of the end product. I believe well to tank efficiency of the petroleum industry is around 80%. It's after it gets into your tank that it all goes to hell. EV's reverse that somewhat, with a well to outlet efficiency running between 20-40% efficiency for coal and NG. I consider hydro, nuke, and solar "100%" efficient since the input "fuel" is not fossil.

 

[donauker]

I'm guessing his response will be something along the lines of the power consumed is almost all created from the oil that is drilled, and it's only a small portion of the end product.

If so then it should be fairly easy to prove him wrong.

A quick Google search turns up this interesting showcase of a mid-sized refinery in Houston, Texas. Link

This refinery processes approximately 136,000 barrels a day and is cited in this study for it efficiency and energy optimization.

Cogeneration:

In 1990, Valero constructed a 34-MW Cogeneration Unit at its Houston refinery. Cogeneration, a process that converts a fuel into both thermal and electrical energy, is used to produce two forms of useful energy output at the refinery: electrical power and utility steam. Two simple-cycle gas turbines in the Cogeneration Unit generate sufficient electricity to meet the refinery’s demands, and occasionally produce excess for export to the local electrical grid.

By generating its own power, the Valero refinery is enhancing its reliability and avoiding purchase of electricity from an off-site utility provider. Valero estimates savings of approximately $40,000 per day. The refinery has reduced steam production costs by using the hot exhaust gas from the turbine to produce steam. This saves the refinery approximately $15,000 per day.

Electrical power and steam production cost savings are offset by an increase in natural gas purchase for firing the turbines. This expense is dependent on the market price of natural gas. The refinery can also export power to the local grid when the on-site electrical requirement is lower than cogeneration production.

So we see that Valero eliminated purchasing grid power and steam by building their own 34 MW power plant for which they now buy natural gas. Still an outside fuel source.

An additional interest item related to water use.

Real-time control of conductivity measurements in the four cooling towers will reduce Valero’s costs for water, cooling tower chemicals, and water treatment—an estimated savings of $130,000 per year. In the three boiler systems, reduced costs for water, treatment chemicals, boiler makeup water softening, and water treatment will save the company an estimated $213,500 per year.

 

[JRP3]

NG is often a byproduct of petroleum production, even if they are purchasing it from another company. Hard to draw much of a conclusion from a single refinery.

 

[donauker]

NG is often a byproduct of petroleum production, even if they are purchasing it from another company. Hard to draw much of a conclusion from a single refinery.

Yes, the same byproduct used by power plants to create electric for EVs. Seems appropriate to us a refinery featured for its operating efficiency.

 

[daxz]

...I was more interested in his claims about electricity use in gasoline production, which I have not found any solid data to counter...

U.S. Fuel Consumed at Refineries from U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Source	2010
Purchased Electricity (Million Kilowatthours)	46,227

 

[JRP3]

Yes, the same byproduct used by power plants to create electric for EVs. Seems appropriate to us a refinery featured for its operating efficiency.

That's assuming the NG that came from oil extraction would also exist if the oil wells did not.

 

[JRP3]

U.S. Fuel Consumed at Refineries from U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

I believe that is "purchased" from plants that are co-owned by refineries and fueled by petroleum byproducts. Basically they are buying back their own power, and those plants are still supplying a net gain to the grid. At least that is the claim that Glenn Doty is making.

 

[Todd Burch]

I don't see why the amount of grid electricity used by a refinery is terribly important. Isn't well to wheel efficiency by far the most important metric?

What I mean is: I don't particularly care if a refinery can cogenerate 5kWh per gallon of gas on its own from process byproducts, or if it needs to get it from the grid. Either way, that's 5kWh of energy that could have more directly been applied to generate mileage for an EV. Yes, generating/transmitting electricity has efficiency losses as well, but in the refinery case it's used to help run the refinery. In the electricity generation case, you could get 3kWh or some usable amount of EV mileage from those byproducts.

Put more simply, it seems like this conversation is all about energy conversion, when the important metric is: how much energy in yields how many driving miles out.

 

[JRP3]

I don't see why the amount of grid electricity used by a refinery is terribly important. Isn't well to wheel efficiency by far the most important metric?

Ultimately yes, but when people try to claim that it takes more electricity to refine a gallon of gasoline than an EV would use to go the same distance, or that it takes 7 or so kWh's of electricity to refine a gallon of gasoline, they need to realize that this is not at all the case.