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What's the point of having a potential 500 miles of range on hand if you will not be driving at least 450 miles per charge?

In no particular order, and including but not limited to:

1. The ability to not charge frequently
2. Faster charging
3. Less contingency planning/anxiety
4. Foul weather range assurance (mostly extreme cold)
5. Going to places where there are no (and will never be) fast chargers
6. High speed range assurance
7. Those blessed with iron bladders
 
Going lightweight is not as important as having a good drive train. Having an efficient drive train means more of the energy that leaves the battery actually makes the car go, and more of the cars kinetic energy makes it back to the battery with regen. Good aerodynamics are important, but being big is not as much of a disadvantage as you might think. The volume of the car increases with the cube of the diameter, while the cross section increases with the square. That means that if you make it bigger to accommodate more batteries, your energy capacity will increase faster than the need for energy to compensate for drag does.

Sure, a tiny little weird mobile will get more miles/kWh. But miles/kWh isn't a particularly good metric, it is better to look at things like range on a full charge, and even more importantly, time driving vs. time waiting. Having a big battery increases the possible charge rate, because if you have the electricity, you can charge 100 batteries just as quickly as you can charge 20.

And finally, these things don't seem like very good cars. The Model S has boatloads of space for both people and cargo. It is built like a tank, so you are less likely to die in a crash. And it also has the power to move itself with gusto.

The idea that being lightweight is the key to better mileage is so thoroughly ingrained from decades of ICE cars that it can be hard to see where it starts to fail, and that line, with present technology, is somewhere between the Model S and all the competitors on the market today.
 
Going lightweight is not as important as having a good drive train. Having an efficient drive train means more of the energy that leaves the battery actually makes the car go, and more of the cars kinetic energy makes it back to the battery with regen.

Skipped physics class? All electric drive trains have about the same efficiency. Lots more energy is needed to propel a heavy car compared to a car that weighs 2 times, 3 times less. A lot can be won in the weight dept.
 
mentioned this on another thread - but when talking about tandem seated, three wheeler at least someone is trying.
No clue as to whether this will actually make it to manufacturing or not, but at least they are trying.
Coming at the ownership segment from the opposite end of the scale from Tesla :wink:
http://www.eliomotors.com
Its not an EV, but hard to see how they could make it an EV and be anywhere near that target price.
 
In no particular order, and including but not limited to:
Ha! A good list! One I've actually made myself. I'm just trying to argue Elon's possible counterpoints. ;-)

So, continuing the argument for 'the other side'...
1. The ability to not charge frequently
Already have this, due to up to 85 kWh battery pack capacity. It isn't as if you are talking Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus Electric range to start. If it were like that, comparative to bailing out a sinking dinghy with a saucer dish, stopping once per traveling hour to sit for a four hour charge, you'd have a great point.

2. Faster charging
Sure, at a significant weight disadvantage using 2009 battery technology. Have some patience, and some faith. Allow Tesla Motors to double range the right way, using 2019 technology. So that fewer cells in a lighter battery pack, provide both more capacity, and more range at once.

Yes, the more individual battery cells within a battery pack array, the more quickly a charge can be distributed throughout them all. But it is very likely the upper limit of total useful battery cells isn't much more than what is already used in today's 85 kWh battery pack. Thus, it is best to wait until higher capacity individual battery cells are fully vetted, then use those in a similar sized array, to achieve a higher aggregate total capacity within the available space.
3. Less contingency planning/anxiety
Tesla Motors products are built by thinkers for thinking people. Using them, even with comfort and convenience features added, does not mount to a brainless endeavor. You must participate, even when Autopilot is fully delivered.

Those who are anxious cannot be helped. They'll feel the same even if a 25% remaining charge is 500 miles instead of 50 miles. That is irrational fear at work. Fear is the mind killer.

4. Foul weather range assurance (mostly extreme cold)
You cannot defeat physics. Wind, rain, snow, standing water, and icy roads all have an adverse affect on range. That will not change, regardless of drivetrain.

The fact that Lithium ion batteries operate best in a narrow range of temperatures may be overcome in time. But extreme temperatures, below 0° Fahrenheit, are trying on all manmade systems. Needing to power the environmental control system and the battery pack conditioning system from the same energy reserve is certainly taxing. I have faith that future battery technologies will not suffer as much.

5. Going to places where there are no (and will never be) fast chargers
Attempting a brute force solution, by cramming 33%-50% more of the same battery cells into the car, would have far reaching implications for a minimal gain in range. You get diminishing returns on improved range, because the added weight of 'more batteries' ruins performance, making a slower car with poorer handling. You could get much of the same improvement in range simply by driving slower with the current battery. Further, the added weight puts more stress on the chassis, strain on drivetrain components, wear on suspension, and wears out tires.

The added battery cells also reduces the interior volume and overall cargo capacity of the vehicle, making it less spacious and convenient to own and operate.

So, adding more batteries simultaneously removes the advantages of the current design paradigm gained from the skateboard platform while making the whole system more apt to premature failure.

6. High speed range assurance
And here, we get too the crux of the matter. There are those that are perpetually in denial of the true nature of the Model S and its future siblings. They want to maintain the same wasteful driving habits they acquired from the ICE realm and port them over to EVs without modification.

7. Those blessed with iron bladders
I used to be good in this regard. These days I may have to make a stop in Phoenix or Tucson instead of lasting all the way to El Paso on a trip from Los Angeles. But let's face it: most people could never last either distance no matter their age or gender.

The idea that being lightweight is the key to better mileage is so thoroughly ingrained from decades of ICE cars that it can be hard to see where it starts to fail, and that line, with present technology, is somewhere between the Model S and all the competitors on the market today.
What the Model S has proved is that the issue of weight can be dealt with through the appropriate application of modern technology in order to deliver a performance oriented vehicle that motivates individuals to purchase it at a premium price point.

Its not an EV, but hard to see how they could make it an EV and be anywhere near that target price.
The thing is that its target price is not being addressed by any major automobile manufacturer. Very few traditional automobile manufacturers currently offer anything at all with a starting price below $15,000. And yes, by the time that Tesla Motors is able to build a car with a base price of $20,000 or less, most new cars on the market will be $25,000 or more.

The pricing structure for motorcycles has always tended toward being more affordable than passenger cars. Just as the safety rating for ownership of motorcycles has always trailed that of passenger cars. There are tradeoffs either way.

The bottom line is that the Elio would have been very impressive... in 1979. It has been a very long time since the Summer I turned twelve. Ah... Sybil, Cassandra, and Andrea... Good times ! And pretty much all the technology in the Elio existed then too.
 
Ha! A good list! One I've actually made myself. I'm just trying to argue Elon's possible counterpoints. ;-)

So, continuing the argument for 'the other side'...

Okay, I'll play. :wink: Acknowledging your devil's advocate stance (and the gratuitous OT nature of this tangent...), note that the context of my comments is with respect to mass EV adoption. Also, I didn't want to go ape with quoting, so it might be a little hard to bounce back and forth...

Already have this, due to up to 85 kWh battery pack capacity.

That 85 is the current largest solution does not mean its the ideal solution. Yes, daily home charging is always going to be the base of EV ownership, but there are plenty of reasons why people want to go farther on a single charge. And when it comes to mass adoption, what people want is far more important that what people need.

If a multi-EV family has a one-car garage, for instance, it may make a lot of sense to alternate charging nights.

Sure, at a significant weight disadvantage using 2009 battery technology.

Completely agree--current technology is not practical to solve the desire for more range, for all the reasons you've mentioned. But one of the major hurdles for EVs is the ability to fast charge, and like it or not, supercharging simply isn't fast enough.

Tesla Motors products are built by thinkers for thinking people.

That Tesla owners are very cognizant of their available range does not mean they don't get range anxiety. In many cases, Tesla owners are forced into anxious situations based on the compilation of other factors I've identified. The general public are going to be even less tolerant of any kind of range induced stress.

Certainly there's a learning curve involved, and certainly we don't need EV's that perform exactly like ICEs...but making the transition easier by making EVs act mostly like ICEs is the fastest way to mass EV adoption. Elon's 'solving range anxiety' solution was more GWB's "Mission Accomplished" than anything. Like it or not, for the average driver, range anxiety is directly tied to available range.

You cannot defeat physics. Wind, rain, snow, standing water, and icy roads all have an adverse affect on range. That will not change, regardless of drivetrain.

Agree. Which is exactly why you need more range. Elon's '300 miles is ideal' target is actually pretty spot on, at least IMHO. I just think that--whatever the state of the battery technology--that 300 mile range should be real world, 'pretty crappy' conditions, not 'California Ideal' conditions. Oh, and real world speeds, not 65mph.

Attempting a brute force solution, by cramming 33%-50% more of the same battery cells into the car, would have far reaching implications for a minimal gain in range.

Again, agree, but the only way you're going to be able to convince people to get rid of their ICEs is if they know they can take an EV pretty much anywhere they can take an ICE--otherwise an EV will be a supplementary car, and not everyone can afford a supplementary car. In other words, simply making an EV affordable is not going to make a huge impact on EV adoption.

And here, we get too the crux of the matter. There are those that are perpetually in denial of the true nature of the Model S and its future siblings. They want to maintain the same wasteful driving habits they acquired from the ICE realm and port them over to EVs without modification.

Its all about the human condition. In many rural areas, people want to drive 80+mph. The type of vehicle they're operating will not change that fact.

most people could never last either distance no matter their age or gender.

Yes, but most people would rather not have to stop every two hours to charge. Certainly as more supercharges are installed this mandatory-stoppage factor will decrease, but until supercharges are located every half hour (or so) on pretty much all major routes, Tesla owners will be forced to stop on Tesla's time not their own.
 
What about for the simple reason of diversifying the Tesla lineup of available models?

EV World posted an interesting view: driverless and car sharing urge the industry to become more creative.

For Tesla, it should also be a matter of how to cater to the growing EV market. Here's an article that sort of confirms what a lot of people are thinking:
Meet the Electric Vehicle Outselling Tesla in China (TSLA)


"In 2013, over 200,000 low-speed EVs were sold in China, according to Autoblog. That's almost four times the total number of vehicles Tesla produced through 2014. These sales are overlooked because they take place in small cities, far from the high-profile showrooms of Shanghai and Beijing, but the category is growing rapidly."
 
Skipped physics class? All electric drive trains have about the same efficiency. Lots more energy is needed to propel a heavy car compared to a car that weighs 2 times, 3 times less. A lot can be won in the weight dept.

You both must have skipped physics class. The important things are rolling resistance (bearings, wheels and tires) and aerodynamics.

Weight is really no object with strong regenerative braking, provided one *uses it* as much as possible and doesn't go careening around from heavy throttle to heavy friction braking like a teenager or a lot of "mature" drivers in my area. It helps to have stronger friction braking when driving in mountainous country to avoid the need for friction braking.

I challenge anyone to document a lightweight EV that can carry 3-4 people in typical commuting at up to moderate highway speeds and use only 62 Wh/km (100 wH/mile). I've seen posts showing that the Chevy Spark can hit 160 Wh/km. My Model S routinely hits 160 Wh/km when I stay on two lane roads in spring and fall with no HVAC running. I seriously doubt there is a car that can do much better than these two, but would like to know of one if such exists.

- - - Updated - - -

While I agree there is no market for these odd extreme cars, but at the same time, there is lots of room for improvement on the efficiency side. The Model S is out of all EVs the most inefficient in the EPA city test due to it's massive weight. For example the BMW i3 uses about 1/3 less energy which mostly due to it's much lower weight.

You need to document that claim. From what I've read in MPGE figures, the i3 is no more than 20% more efficient, and David Noland found a smaller difference than that suggested by the EPA figures when he put them head to head for greencarreports.com.
 
Skipped physics class? All electric drive trains have about the same efficiency. Lots more energy is needed to propel a heavy car compared to a car that weighs 2 times, 3 times less. A lot can be won in the weight dept.
So all batteries have the same efficiency? All, inverters? All Motors? All transmissions?

If weight is so important, why is the heaviest production electric vehicle also the fastest and the longest range?
 
Here the thing is: Available energy reserves determine both the motor output and potential range of electric cars.

The 2013 RAV4 EV: has slightly higher total battery capacity, weighs several hunded pounds less, runs about half the horsepower rating, is front wheel drive, is built of steel construction... and all that yields a much lower total range than the Tesla Model S 40.

This is evidence that having a wimpmobile version of Model ≡ will not accomplish the goals set forth by Tesla Motors.
 
It is better than the Lit Motors and other converticycles that abound, though.

Red Sage, interesting that you say that. The Lit Motors C-1 is designed to do something very different than what full width cars do. It's designed to be able to split lanes like a motorcycle on a crowded urban freeway, thereby passing all the gridlocked traffic, without having to be on a motorcycle with all their safety and comfort problems. I'd love to be able to do what motorcycles are doing right now but without having to wear a helmet, get wet when it rained or have one of my body parts be the very first thing to contact the pavement in the event of a collision.

I almost don't even car what the Lit C-1 looks like as long as it can do the things I just mentioned. It's the ultimate utility play if you're an urban commuter.