Interesting. For me on a daily In-town road, v12 finally fixed the problem of always moving into a newly opened lane.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd has decision wobble fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd sometimes may not detect train crossings fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
V12.3 on my drive home from work had a couple issues, my first disengagement and some interesting behavior:
1) Left turn on yellow from a left turn only lane at a busy intersection. V12.3 seemed to follow the lead SUV to make the turn on yellow but then stopped a bit in the intersection, seemed a bit noncommittal so I disengaged because of oncoming traffic. This behavior is pretty similar to V11. Part of it might have been the fact that the lead car was a big SUV likely blocking the front cameras from seeing the oncoming cars until after the SUV had made the turn. I know I could not see oncoming traffic. I would have stopped and then made a decision to go or not. I would not have followed the lead SUV into the intersection like V12 started to do.
2) Braked unnecessarily in parking lot for pedestrian on the side.
3) Jerky and fast going up hill on campus road.
4) At campus exit, turning right onto 55 mph main road. It stopped on a yellow and then made the right turn on red. Not unsafe because cross traffic was stopped but odd. Why not just go on yellow? Why wait and go on red?
5) Making a left turn. Light was green but there was oncoming cars. It waited correctly for cars to pass before making turn but was a bit slow at making the turn after cars had passed. Human drivers would have been more assertive.
I find that sometimes V12.3 is perhaps too assertive and sometimes it is too cautious when it does not need to be. It will be interesting to see if that gets ironed out with more training or if e2e will struggle with understanding when to be assertive and when not to be, as that can sometimes be a judgment call that takes human intuition and experience. So I am not sure if AI will be good at that. But perhaps, Tesla can find a good compromise between cautious and assertive?
I suspect that some of this behavior might be from the hardware if the cameras don't see well enough due to occlusions. Perhaps V12 is making these assertive or overly cautious moves because of uncertainty about what it sees. I know we've had a lot of discussion about what the B pillar cameras can see.
1) Left turn on yellow from a left turn only lane at a busy intersection. V12.3 seemed to follow the lead SUV to make the turn on yellow but then stopped a bit in the intersection, seemed a bit noncommittal so I disengaged because of oncoming traffic. This behavior is pretty similar to V11. Part of it might have been the fact that the lead car was a big SUV likely blocking the front cameras from seeing the oncoming cars until after the SUV had made the turn. I know I could not see oncoming traffic. I would have stopped and then made a decision to go or not. I would not have followed the lead SUV into the intersection like V12 started to do.
2) Braked unnecessarily in parking lot for pedestrian on the side.
3) Jerky and fast going up hill on campus road.
4) At campus exit, turning right onto 55 mph main road. It stopped on a yellow and then made the right turn on red. Not unsafe because cross traffic was stopped but odd. Why not just go on yellow? Why wait and go on red?
5) Making a left turn. Light was green but there was oncoming cars. It waited correctly for cars to pass before making turn but was a bit slow at making the turn after cars had passed. Human drivers would have been more assertive.
I find that sometimes V12.3 is perhaps too assertive and sometimes it is too cautious when it does not need to be. It will be interesting to see if that gets ironed out with more training or if e2e will struggle with understanding when to be assertive and when not to be, as that can sometimes be a judgment call that takes human intuition and experience. So I am not sure if AI will be good at that. But perhaps, Tesla can find a good compromise between cautious and assertive?
I suspect that some of this behavior might be from the hardware if the cameras don't see well enough due to occlusions. Perhaps V12 is making these assertive or overly cautious moves because of uncertainty about what it sees. I know we've had a lot of discussion about what the B pillar cameras can see.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I prefer less aggressive profiles.
And it is not a preference issue. No one likes this behavior and it is THIS that causes it to fail the wife test.
See the post with all the screen captures from last night. In what world would anyone want that jerkfest? There is clearly, objectively, a better way to do it, if the objective is maximum smoothness. There is nothing subjective about that metric.
People here are raving about how smooth v12 is (which it is, in most maneuvers, compared to v11), so I think it is a reasonable metric.
Smooth is good. Provides the illusion of competence.
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Don’t worry I stayed up until 2 as well. Very disappointed my hypothesis was wrong. Head down to the store and grab a magic 8 ball. I got mine today.I stayed up till 2am based on your LIES!
It strikes me as funny how some people experience such existential suffering while pining for the latest update to materialize. When I read about the speed control issues, I know immediately I would be miserable around here if hobbled by that behavior. When I read that 12.3.1 might solve it, then I don't want 12.3 anymore. I'll start getting excited again when 12.3.1 or whatever subsequent version actually gets here, gets here. In the meantime I just smile to myself seeing the improvement in FSD and the potential for it to actually reach Prime Time.
LSDTester#1
Ingesting large quantities of LSD
I thought you were giving him ketamine?
Therealm80
Member
Hypothetical question. Once FSD gets really really good and they start licensing it if it is end to end, does that mean that Tesla will control all of the cars in the world?
Before they start licensing it for other manufactures maybe they should first try and get it to work on the Cybertruck.
I can understand this behavior, as the current NN seems to favor stopping for yellows more than v11 did. So it saw the yellow and stopped, then started the creep for the right turn.
Mine is stopping at just the SMELL of a yellow. Hope they get this back to v11 standard on 12.3.1 or for sure by 12.4.
j0shm1lls
Member
They're gonna start making me swear to sweet baby jesus again...
tmoz
S85D, Y LR, ex Prius PiP
To add a prequel to this, when I took delivery of my S85D in June 2015 Elon was talking about how an autonomous NY to LA drive was in the works.
No talk about future hardware or special software, because why would anything better be needed? The car is starting to feel antiquated compared to our Dec 2023 model Y, but I still like it.
gottagofast
2022 Model 3 Performance
If the waves reset with every new update does that mean there are some people that could never get it if they are very unlucky?
There could be various aspects that could be "smoother" from your regen bar captures:
At 35mph, it has the longest regen bar with gray extending into regular braking, so this could be too much absolute deceleration intensity? Safety Score does dock points for Hard Braking exceeding 0.3g or roughly decreasing 6.7mph in 1 second.
At 30mph -> 22, the amount of deceleration seems to be the same, so pretending it was a constant deceleration the whole time, is there an issue that it transitioned to also regular braking (potentially you can feel the different type of braking resulting in lack of smoothness)? Where alternatively, someone letting go of the accelerator will naturally stay in the green.
And overall and what you're probably primarily focused on is the swings in the power meter, e.g., 42mph long, 34 short, 30 long again, 19 short again, i.e., jerk. Have people noticed similar jerkiness when accelerating?
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Late 2016 maybe, but 2015 they were still using Mobileye. A 2015 MS was never talked about having FSD.
Alternatively,
"Acceleration is the better part of yellow."
We have adherents on both sides.
Certainly not from a standing start. Braking targets speed and location. Acceleration only targets speed. It's much simpler.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yes it is too much. It was possible at this point to simply release the accelerator and coast to a stop with margin. I know because I could feel it. You know how it is with EVs.
You can see it missed a LOT of energy recapture opportunity at 34mph (and probably beyond for a couple mph).
Emphasis added - no. Assuming this is a (potentially nonlinear) power meter, and I believe it is (less regen power is available at lower speeds presumably due to some inverter limitations, and you can see that if you let the car coast to a stop with max regen - some of the profile of “full regen” may be comfort based too, it is possible it could do more, though from these captures it suggests that is probably not the case), at a lower speed, the same total stopping power (P=Fv) means higher F (F=ma) thus higher g force if P is same and v is smaller.
So actually at 22mph it is decelerating faster than at 30mph. Would you look at that…jerk! (This is why it is super upsetting.)
No I don’t notice this at all. Tesla’s drivetrain characteristics are awesome. Turn on regen emulation and it is nearly imperceptible. I usually notice it if I have to hit the brake, because it feels different if emulation is in use. I can also hear it since it dumps excess energy into warming the battery (sounds like preconditioning).
*What is your tool for generating collages?
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