kinddog
Banned
ARE YOU F'ING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!?!?
i'm about to resign from this community. and this entire post is exactly why.
un. believable.
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Firmware 4.2
- Thread starter dsm363
- Start date
ARE YOU F'ING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!?!?
i'm about to resign from this community. and this entire post is exactly why.
un. believable.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
I'm happy to amuse.
Sure, many of the points are small or trivial, that's obvious. But Tesla didn't get where they are by not paying attention to detail. I've had conversations with both JB and Franz where they actively encouraged and solicited customer feedback like this on even the smallest issues. And it's a testament to the overall amazing quality of the car that these little trivial bits are all I can come up with!
Update: JB responded and thanked me for the feedback, indicated that they are working on several of these issues, and that some of them (including the cold soak behavior) will be fixed in firmware 4.3. Good to know.
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Ben,
I hate the idea of having the car automatically switch into range mode. I'd much prefer to make that choice myself. Broder should never be a reason that we have the software changed on us. Besides, don't you really think that Broder wouldn't have just turned off range mode himself? Wait, come to think of it:
1. Range mode sticks (it doesn't revert back to standard after charging).
2. The last charge prior to Broder charging it in DE was a range charge.
Who deactivated range mode?
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
As I envision it, this would only apply while supercharging, and not change your default settings for home charging. In fact, I thought the car does revert back to Standard automatically after you drive it a while? (I could be wrong.)
In any case, I'm curious why you'd be opposed to the supercharger automatically topping up to 100%? Is it that you perceive it might be bad for the battery? My understanding (based on conversations with Tesla and others, and four years of Roadster ownership) is that topping up to 100% and immediately driving down to 90% has no significant impact on battery life. What does hurt the battery is to leave it charged at 100% for a long time (at least overnight). This is a non-issue at superchargers, because no one stays overnight there
As I envision it, this would only apply while supercharging, and not change your default settings for home charging. In fact, I thought the car does revert back to Standard automatically after you drive it a while? (I could be wrong.)
In any case, I'm curious why you'd be opposed to the supercharger automatically topping up to 100%? Is it that you perceive it might be bad for the battery? My understanding (based on conversations with Tesla and others, and four years of Roadster ownership) is that topping up to 100% and immediately driving down to 90% has no significant impact on battery life. What does hurt the battery is to leave it charged at 100% for a long time (at least overnight). This is a non-issue at superchargers, because no one stays overnight there
Not to sound silly, but it all depends on your definition of significant.
Peter
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
I agree the battery hit is probably small; but given that Tesla is warranting it THEY are probably concerned about it. That alone may make this change unlikely.
Personally, I'm more worried about people sitting there waiting just because their car is still charging at ever-declining speeds...when they actually have more than enough to make the next Supercharger, and others are waiting for them. Perhaps buildout will be such that this is not an issue; I hope so, but I'd still lean towards not defaulting to Range charge.
Maybe instead of auto-range-charge there could be a location-dependent feature that pops up a dialog that says "hey, you're at a Supercharger - want to fill it up?"
Personally, I'm more worried about people sitting there waiting just because their car is still charging at ever-declining speeds...when they actually have more than enough to make the next Supercharger, and others are waiting for them. Perhaps buildout will be such that this is not an issue; I hope so, but I'd still lean towards not defaulting to Range charge.
Maybe instead of auto-range-charge there could be a location-dependent feature that pops up a dialog that says "hey, you're at a Supercharger - want to fill it up?"
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
In the case of the NYT review test drive, it's almost certain that FAR more damage was done to the battery by driving it down to zero than would have been done by topping it up to 100%. I suppose that Standard charging at a supercharger could be an available option, if you were really concerned or didn't need the extra miles, but probably Range should be the default. I'd also venture to guess that the full-power supercharging process from 20% to 80% is IN ITSELF considerably more damaging to the battery than the much slower trickle-charge from 90% to 100%. It would be very nice if Tesla were to write a detailed blog addressing these issues in depth, instead of leaving it so nebulous and undefined.
It would be nice to have a standard measure of battery wear, such as "days of sitting at 50% charge", which is the best case for battery life. In other words, it would be nice to know that topping up from 90% to 100% and immediately driving back down to 90% wears out the battery by the equivalent of "six hours", say, or that discharging all the way to zero and immediately recharging eats up "two weeks", or that supercharging from 20% to 80% eats up "two days", or that a four-second zero-to-sixty run eats up "thirty minutes", and so on.
Seconded. If I'm at a supercharger and don't need range mode to get home, why use it?
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
You can always unplug early; the charging mode makes no difference UNLESS the supercharge reaches 90% and you haven't come back to the car yet. In that case, my point is, it might as well keep trickle-charging. Preferring "Standard" mode here is a bit like preferring gas pumps to shut off for some reason when the tank is 90% full; I don't think anyone would ever ask for that. Given that the electricity is free, and that it won't harm the battery (because you'll drive off the top % right away), and that you can always unplug early, what's the advantage of NOT being in Range mode at a supercharger?
This relies on two assumptions: a) topping of in range mode is harmless as long as you drive off right away after charging, and b) I'm hovering at the supercharger the entire time instead of hanging out a restaurant or something.
I'm ignorant but skeptical about a) and down right pessimistic about b) ever happening.
There's already a GIANT SLIDER in the center of the screen for this! No pop-up is necessary!
I don't think we know that actually.
If it was 0% SOC, perhaps. But not the 4% SOC or whatever it was.
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
Huh? There's no need to hang out at the supercharger. Just plug the car in, go have lunch or whatever, then come back. You can check the charging status from your phone whenever you like. (And start/stop the charge remotely, if needed.) Why would you have to hover?
As far as (a), I'm basing it on 4+ years of experience with the Roadster doing exactly this [with no ill effects on range], and also on basic battery chemistry. The chemical reactions that harm the cells occur more quickly at 100% charge, but the net effect is still negligible unless the battery sits at 100% for many hours or days. Since at home the car does stay at "full charge" for long periods of time, it's not advisable to leave it on range mode there. But superchargers are completely different, since the battery won't stay near 100% for more than 30-60 minutes or so.
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True, there is a built-in margin there. (As there is at the top end; the cells are never charged to their true maximum energy capacity, even in Range mode.) But given the ambient cold temperatures, and how quickly the power was drained overnight with the car off, it's not clear how long it would have taken for that 4% charge to become a 0% charge and cause real damage. It can't have been good for the car to drag it up onto the flatbed with the parking brake engaged, either.
Assuming it took two hours for the tow truck to get the vehicle to a charger, you're presuming the Tesla guidance is off by a factor of 100+:
ms_owners_guide.pdf said:
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
The ultra-slow discharge rate likely assumes non-freezing temperatures. In freezing weather, the battery will quickly either get so cold that it cannot be charged (for most Li-Ion chemistries, that's 0 °C or below), or else have to discharge quickly enough to maintain itself at a chargeable temperature. I don't know whether the battery is capable of being heated directly from an external charger, of whether you'd have to wait for the weather to warm up first (or put the car somewhere warm). If it were me, I would just top up 100% to minimize the chance of having to find out
spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
Ben W
Chess Grandmaster (Supervised)
Even without a phone, no need to hover, unless for some reason you're trying to stop the charge at some exact level. My point was, though, there's never a reason to want to do that. Just plug in, go eat lunch, come back. If it's not charged up enough, you'd have to wait longer anyway. If it's charged more than you need, no harm done. I have an email in to JB to confirm that trickle-charging to 100% and immediately driving it off doesn't hurt the battery, which has also been my experience after doing this probably 100+ times over 4 years of Roadster ownership. I'll post his response when/if I hear back.
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