Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[alpal]

Gee - I wonder if the truck driver isn't motivated to not quite recall the truth of the accident?

 

[Rich Bentley]

Too many questions here for me alpal. I think for the present I would prefer to stay in control. I have found that even with standard old cruise control when you need to regain direct control it is easy to make mistakes- press accelerator instead of brake etc.

 

[PJF000]

The following is from the 'other' autopilot incident.

“We got access to the logs. Data from the vehicle shows that Autosteer was not engaged at the time of this collision. Prior to the collision, Autosteer was in use periodically throughout the approximately 50-minute trip. The most recent such use ended when, approximately 40 seconds prior to the collision, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the wheel and began a rapidly escalating set of visual and audible alerts to ensure the driver took proper control. When the driver failed to respond to 15 seconds of visual warnings and audible tones, Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel. Approximately 11 seconds prior to the collision, the driver responded and regained control by holding the steering wheel, applying leftward torque to turn it, and pressing the accelerator pedal to 42%. Over 10 seconds and approximately 300m later and while under manual steering control, the driver drifted out of the lane, collided with a barrier, overcorrected, crossed both lanes of the highway, struck a median barrier, and rolled the vehicle.”

This illustrates one of the main problems with AP in that its warnings to grab the wheel are displayed on the dash (at the very bottom). Now, I don't know about you, but, I watch the road NOT the dash. I become aware of the warnings (which happen all too often) when the system starts beeping and disabling the audio. At this time, I grab the wheel (just touching it is NOT enough) to get my audio back. Sometimes! I grab a little too forcefully which turns off the lane hold. This does give a beep noise which is likely to get lost in all the other beep noises.

Unless I check the dash after each one of these grabs, I am likely left in a situation where I think lane hold is still functioning when it is NOT! I would rather watch the road.

This 'nag' process is a safety hazard!

That incident was the Model X on the barrier, not the fatality with the truck.
the system is a Beta system and if you don't understand the implications of using a Beta anything then you should not be involved in the testing. Darwin always reigns supreme.

 

[raynewman]

That incident was the Model X on the barrier, not the fatality with the truck.
the system is a Beta system and if you don't understand the implications of using a Beta anything then you should not be involved in the testing. Darwin always reigns supreme.

You totally missed my point.

 

[PJF000]

You totally missed my point.

I did miss your first line, so apologies for my line 1, but my point on it being only a beta test system remains valid. It wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather the fact that a beta system means it is in the early stages of development and should not be relied on especially when one's life could be at risk. For that very fact it pays not to be complacent when using it.

 

[raynewman]

I did miss your first line, so apologies for my line 1, but my point on it being only a beta test system remains valid. It wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather the fact that a beta system means it is in the early stages of development and should not be relied on especially when one's life could be at risk. For that very fact it pays not to be complacent when using it.

Which is exactly what I was saying (but a bit more forthright).

 

[gcgp]

I love autopilot and can't wait for it to not be in Beta anymore. Autopilot did do something very scary last night. We were in a tunnel in Brisbane with autopilot on at 80kph. Then, all of a sudden, I felt a sharp veering to the left and we almost collided with the tunnel wall. I was being vigilant so I was able to very quickly regain control. I continued on with just TACC but no autosteer until we exited the tunnel. It gave my wife a fright. It just goes to show that with autopilot on, we should all still be completely aware of what is happening while we are driving.

 

[RichardMcN]

I love autopilot and can't wait for it to not be in Beta anymore. Autopilot did do something very scary last night. We were in a tunnel in Brisbane with autopilot on at 80kph. Then, all of a sudden, I felt a sharp veering to the left and we almost collided with the tunnel wall. I was being vigilant so I was able to very quickly regain control. I continued on with just TACC but no autosteer until we exited the tunnel. It gave my wife a fright. It just goes to show that with autopilot on, we should all still be completely aware of what is happening while we are driving.

Yes, a few things I have noticed about Auto-Pilot from someone that uses it every day:

• The car often keeps far too left in a lane, especially when first activating auto-pilot
• Even when going past a car when in the far right lane with plenty of clearance on ones right the car sits uncomfortably closer to vehicles on the left (yellow warnings to the left but yet no or white warnings to the right)
• When changing lanes from right to the left the car often goes way to far to the left before correcting itself...has the wife holding on to the seat if a car is in the left lane we are nearly encroaching upon (seems fine when changing to the a right lane)

These issue have been there from day one, they should be correct as it can be darn right dangerous at times, oh and the above is only on highways used in a situation where auto-pilot is meant to be utilised and where auto-pilot is meant to be at it's best (traffic all going in the one direction, very good line markings and a concrete divider between traffic flow directions).

Mine likes to veer left too (mostly gradually), especially at the start, and even if there is a B-double to my left. Also alarming for my wife !
I have never dared to use autosteer on the Syd Harbour Bridge - esp Lane 1 - narrow and right up against the railway fence on the left with no shoulder.
I do agree with both EcoCloudIT and Gcgp. You need a double space buffer with autosteer and autopilot. Firstly a buffer for autosteer and autopilot to work within, and a second buffer to allow you go get control of the situation if autosteer and autopilot don't do the right thing.
Having said that, on a long country drive with good roads and light traffic they really cut the workload down.

 

[Aussie Yank]

I must be the odd man out. I always use autopilot in both Sydney harbour tunnel as well as the tunnels near the airport. Never an issue, except keeping a close eye during the first few seconds till it has centered itself. Works great in Cross City Tunnel too

 

[paulp]

I must be the odd man out. I always use autopilot in both Sydney harbour tunnel as well as the tunnels near the airport. Never an issue, except keeping a close eye during the first few seconds till it has centered itself. Works great in Cross City Tunnel too

I've never taken mine through the tunnel or bridge either, probably because I live in Adelaide.
Only nasty surprise Ive had was when a large piece of rubbish blew in front of the car. AP thought it was a very large solid obstacle and slammed the brakes on.

 

[Tam]

I think where Autopilot falls short of NHTSA Level 3 is "Vehicles at this level of automation enable the driver to cede full control of all safety-critical functions" and "The driver is expected to be available for occasional control, but with sufficiently comfortable transition time." Tesla makes it very clear that you can't fully cede control, and that you have to be available to take over immediately. Not with a comfortable transition time.

Scientific American does agree with your assessment that car drivers have much less time to react when the machine gives back the controls while airplane pilots have more time:

“You think of a Top Gun pilot needing to have lightning-fast reflexes? Well, an ordinary driver needs to be even faster.”

What NASA Could Teach Tesla about Autopilot's Limits

However, it still classifies Tesla as NHTSA automated vehicle Level 3.

The article seems to promote the view of Google,Ford, Volvo... that Level 3 like Tesla's should not be on the market due to human maladaptation and confusion between automation and manual driving.

In my opinion, that view is hypocritical because they clearly cited Air France 447 pilot confusion when Autopilot gave controls back to human who were confused and forgot how to fly the airplane and crashed it but they don't demand a ban of autopilot in airplane!

It's great that Google and others think that they can perfect driverless autonomous driving in future, but in mean time, I believe that anything in between to fill that gap should be available to drivers.

 

[Max*]

However, it still classifies Tesla as NHTSA automated vehicle Level 3.

And it's 100% wrong.

Here's (it's a PDF) a good technical publication, by the NHTSA, where they give a little more info besides the one sentence as to the difference between Level 2 and Level 3

Level 2 (L2) Combined Function Automation Level 2 “involves automation of at least two primary control functions designed to work in unison to relieve the driver of control of those functions. Vehicles at this level of automation can utilize shared authority when the driver cedes active primary control in certain limited driving situations. The driver is still responsible for monitoring the roadway and safe operation and is expected to be available for control at all times and on short notice. The system can relinquish control with no advance warning and the driver must be ready to control the vehicle safely. An example of combined functions enabling a Level 2 system is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering. The major distinction between level 1 and level 2 is that, at level 2 in the specific operating conditions for which the system is designed, an automated operating mode is enabled such that the driver is disengaged from physically operating the vehicle by having his or her hands off the steering wheel AND foot off pedal at the same time.”

Vehicles with Level 3 automation “enable the driver to cede full control of all safety-critical functions under certain traffic or environmental conditions and in those conditions to rely heavily on the vehicle to monitor for changes in the conditions requiring transition back to driver control. The driver is expected to be available for occasional control, but with sufficiently comfortable transition time. The vehicle is designed to ensure safe operation during the automated driving mode. An example would be an automated or self-driving car that can determine when the system is no longer able to support automation, such as from an oncoming construction area, and then signals to the driver to reengage in the driving task, providing the driver with an appropriate amount of transition time to safely regain manual control. The major distinction between level 2 and level 3 is that at level 3, the vehicle is designed so that the driver is not expected to constantly monitor the roadway while driving.”

Emphasis = Mine

 

[Matias]

Maybe its difficult to understand because AP wasn't on.

AP was on (according to Tesla) during the fatal accident.

 

[Garlan Garner]

AP was on (according to Tesla) during the fatal accident.

Nope...wasn't on. Below is the data per Elon.

In the light of the new findings, Mr. Scaglione is now facing charges of reckless driving. As for his reputation, you could argue that he tried to place the blame on the Autopilot, but at the same time you can't really judge a man for what he said right after a serious crash. As the logs description below shows, he was indeed using all the Autopilot features before the incident took place, so he might have gotten confused.

“We got access to the logs. Data from the vehicle shows that Autosteer was not engaged at the time of this collision. Prior to the collision, Autosteer was in use periodically throughout the approximately 50-minute trip. The most recent such use ended when, approximately 40 seconds prior to the collision, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the wheel and began a rapidly escalating set of visual and audible alerts to ensure the driver took proper control. When the driver failed to respond to 15 seconds of visual warnings and audible tones, Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel. Approximately 11 seconds prior to the collision, the driver responded and regained control by holding the steering wheel, applying leftward torque to turn it, and pressing the accelerator pedal to 42%. Over 10 seconds and approximately 300m later and while under manual steering control, the driver drifted out of the lane, collided with a barrier, overcorrected, crossed both lanes of the highway, struck a median barrier, and rolled the vehicle.”


Read more: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-tesla-model-x-that-rolled-over-in-pennsylvania-didn-t-have-autopilot-on-109481.html#ixzz4EnqdgMDq

 

[thegruf]

“We got access to the logs. Data from the vehicle shows that Autosteer was not engaged at the time of this collision. Prior to the collision, Autosteer was in use periodically throughout the approximately 50-minute trip. The most recent such use ended when, approximately 40 seconds prior to the collision, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the wheel and began a rapidly escalating set of visual and audible alerts to ensure the driver took proper control. When the driver failed to respond to 15 seconds of visual warnings and audible tones, Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel. Approximately 11 seconds prior to the collision, the driver responded and regained control by holding the steering wheel, applying leftward torque to turn it, and pressing the accelerator pedal to 42%. Over 10 seconds and approximately 300m later and while under manual steering control, the driver drifted out of the lane, collided with a barrier, overcorrected, crossed both lanes of the highway, struck a median barrier, and rolled the vehicle.”


Read more: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-tesla-model-x-that-rolled-over-in-pennsylvania-didn-t-have-autopilot-on-109481.html#ixzz4EnqdgMDq

That really is quite damaging to the driver's reputation.

Lesson: If in accident - don't BS Tesla as you WILL be found out.

I'm sure that Tesla wouldn't, but really they could go after this driver for stating he was on AP when he wasnt and the resultant damage to Tesla in the press.

And I still want to know in the fatal accident how, according to the truck driver's statement (subsequently edited), the Tesla was initially in the left lane and then was in hte right lane when the accident occured. No way the AP drifted from one lane to another without the driver knowing it, and if the driver instigated the change he just had to had looked and would have seen the truck/trailer.
However sad the outcome, there's more to that story yet.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That really is quite damaging to the driver's reputation.

Lesson: If in accident - don't BS Tesla as you WILL be found out.

I'm sure that Tesla wouldn't, but really they could go after this driver for stating he was on AP when he wasnt and the resultant damage to Tesla in the press.

And I still want to know in the fatal accident how, according to the truck driver's statement (subsequently edited), the Tesla was initially in the left lane and then was in hte right lane when the accident occured. No way the AP drifted from one lane to another without the driver knowing it, and if the driver instigated the change he just had to had looked and would have seen the truck/trailer.
However sad the outcome, there's more to that story yet.

I agree that its quite damaging to the drivers reputation, however the driver put it on themselves. Be honest and you don't have to worry about anything.
Teslas reputation was damaged until the truth came out....so I say "fair game".

Other potential fakers out there needed to see Teslas response.

 

[jdw]

Nope...wasn't on. Below is the data per Elon.

In the light of the new findings, Mr. Scaglione is now facing charges of reckless driving...

Wrong topic ... this is the fatal accident involving a semi-trailer, not the bouncing off two meridians and rolling the car incident.

 

[KZKZ]

Nope...wasn't on. Below is the data per Elon.

In the light of the new findings, Mr. Scaglione is now facing charges of reckless driving. As for his reputation, you could argue that he tried to place the blame on the Autopilot, but at the same time you can't really judge a man for what he said right after a serious crash. As the logs description below shows, he was indeed using all the Autopilot features before the incident took place, so he might have gotten confused.

“We got access to the logs. Data from the vehicle shows that Autosteer was not engaged at the time of this collision. Prior to the collision, Autosteer was in use periodically throughout the approximately 50-minute trip. The most recent such use ended when, approximately 40 seconds prior to the collision, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the wheel and began a rapidly escalating set of visual and audible alerts to ensure the driver took proper control. When the driver failed to respond to 15 seconds of visual warnings and audible tones, Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel. Approximately 11 seconds prior to the collision, the driver responded and regained control by holding the steering wheel, applying leftward torque to turn it, and pressing the accelerator pedal to 42%. Over 10 seconds and approximately 300m later and while under manual steering control, the driver drifted out of the lane, collided with a barrier, overcorrected, crossed both lanes of the highway, struck a median barrier, and rolled the vehicle.”


Read more: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-tesla-model-x-that-rolled-over-in-pennsylvania-didn-t-have-autopilot-on-109481.html#ixzz4EnqdgMDq

Yes, AutoPilot was indeed on in the fatal accident mentioned in the post you're responding to.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, AutoPilot was indeed on in the fatal accident mentioned in the post you're responding to.

Yes, It was on. I was quoting the wrong accident.

What should be suggested? I'm glad that Elon is more steadfast than I am. Maybe he has a great team on his side that keeps him encouraged to keep going forward despite CRs suggestions and others that have written truly vicious criticisms to AP. Elon, if you get a chance to read this post -

Please keep going. Be encouraged. Don't back down to the criticism. You didn't get this far in success by acquiescing to the discouragement of critics. As you know...you make a great product in all 3 models of automobiles you produce. Get some sleep and have a great day tomorrow.

 

[ZTrekus]

Looks like we will get an update that improves autopilot.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk says electric car maker is striving to improve Autopilot

I think Elon Musk's handling of this fatality has been a class act. A radical change in the radar and Mobileye was identified as a result and it looks as if he has left no stone unturned in addressing it immediately. What a CEO! Personally I really look forward to the update.