NHTSA make roads across the world less safe

[Dewg]

My Model 3 has four drivers, the whole family. It has now collected three strikes.

I may soon be punished for mistakes of other drivers. This is not fair and borders on the illegal, because something that I have paid for is taken from my car without any reasonable justification.

A lot to unpack here:

1) Having multiple profiles doesn't let drivers avoid strike outs. Look at the other side of your situation. If someone wanted to abuse the system with inattentive driving, and could simply switch profiles to avoid penalty, that would be unsafe for everyone.

2) If other family members are causing strikes, remove their ability to use ADAS. Disable AP/FSD Beta on their profiles. Educate them on the proper use of the system, and tell them it will be removed if they don't use correctly.

3) A full strike out results in the feature being disabled for 1 week. Then all strikes are reset. It's not being taken away permanently.

4) There is no law regarding strike outs. I'd enjoy hearing an argument to a judge on this.

5) There is a manual, on screen agreement you have to accept, and warnings every time you use the system. The strikes come with alerts both visual and auditory. How is any of that unreasonable?

 

[Handsome Jack]

Nah, you have an eternity to respond to the torque requests. You get a message asking for the wheel movement. Then a few seconds later you get a blue pulsing banner, and an audio alert for several seconds. Then you get a red pulsing banner and louder alert for several more seconds. Then you get a strike.

That's probably EU vs USA thing - in EU it's much more severe, like you only have 2-4 seconds to jiggle quite strongly (I often increase jiggle intensity, while it's not being picked up by a car to the point that it disengage autopilot) before you get strike.
I solve it by cheating device - not to sleep in the car but so I can focus on the road and not constantly thinking/freaking out about nags and bans.

The author of the message you're responding to is from germany, so the same situation. And it's become even worse with that recall update.

 

[Supcom]

A lot to unpack here:

1) Having multiple profiles doesn't let drivers avoid strike outs. Look at the other side of your situation. If someone wanted to abuse the system with inattentive driving, and could simply switch profiles to avoid penalty, that would be unsafe for everyone.

2) If other family members are causing strikes, remove their ability to use ADAS. Disable AP/FSD Beta on their profiles. Educate them on the proper use of the system, and tell them it will be removed if they don't use correctly.

3) A full strike out results in the feature being disabled for 1 week. Then all strikes are reset. It's not being taken away permanently.

4) There is no law regarding strike outs. I'd enjoy hearing an argument to a judge on this.

5) There is a manual, on screen agreement you have to accept, and warnings every time you use the system. The strikes come with alerts both visual and auditory. How is any of that unreasonable?

AFAIK, disabling ADAS is not PIN protected, so disabled features can be re-enabled by anyone.

A better approach is that once ADAS is suspended, you delete everyone else's access to the car for the duration of the suspension. That should get their attention.

 

[Dewg]

That's probably EU vs USA thing - in EU it's much more severe, like you only have 2-4 seconds to jiggle quite strongly (I often increase jiggle intensity, while it's not being picked up by a car to the point that it disengage autopilot) before you get strike.
I solve it by cheating device - not to sleep in the car but so I can focus on the road and not constantly thinking/freaking out about nags and bans.

The author of the message you're responding to is from germany, so the same situation. And it's become even worse with that recall update.

Makes sense. Found this regarding the recent recall:

However, a spokesperson for RDW said there are differences in what specific features are allowed at level 2 in the United States and in Europe, which is following U.N. standards.
Tesla's steering functions in Europe are tested against the U.N., not U.S. rules, they said.
Other "differences are, for example, in how the 'drivers monitoring' is done and the warning given to the driver when the system is abused," the spokesperson said.

Sounds like EU has a significantly more stringent driver monitoring protocol.

However, the wheel torque should still be a light (eg: 1 finger) effort to satisfy. If you're having to jiggle the wheel back and forth and still not getting the nag satisfied, you may have a torque sensor issue. You can try the following:

When prompted to apply torque to the wheel, do so, moving the wheel left and/or right. If the request remains and you get the blue banner, do the torque movement again. If you get the red banner, disengage the system. Then press the voice button on your wheel and say "bug report". Open a service ticket in the app with your local service center, and reference the bug report. Tell them to check the report and test the torque sensor.

 

[Handsome Jack]

Then press the voice button on your wheel and say "bug report". Open a service ticket in the app with your local service center, and reference the bug report. Tell them to check the report and test the torque sensor.

It's likely not a bug, I've rented TMY before I've bought mine, and it was absolutely the same. In terms of torque on the steering wheel. It became worse due to camera monitoring and bans (before it was only AP disengage for the rest of the trip).
I've also asked about that and we agreed that it's likely EU thing (however Toyota that I had before didn't have such issue - resting a palm or finger on one side of a wheel was enough, almost never had to jiggle or increase downforce)

 

[Bouba]

It's likely not a bug, I've rented TMY before I've bought mine, and it was absolutely the same. In terms of torque on the steering wheel. It became worse due to camera monitoring and bans (before it was only AP disengage for the rest of the trip).
I've also asked about that and we agreed that it's likely EU thing (however Toyota that I had before didn't have such issue - resting a palm or finger on one side of a wheel was enough, almost never had to jiggle or increase downforce)

Can the Toyota be updated or modified to have more nagging ?....will New Toyotas have more nagging ?...it seems that the authorities are determined to use our best feature (constant updating) against us

 

[Handsome Jack]

Can the Toyota be updated or modified to have more nagging ?....will New Toyotas have more nagging ?...it seems that the authorities are determined to use our best feature (constant updating) against us

Totally agree!
Toyota's assistance systems called "Toyota Safety Sense", I've had v2.5 and it wasn't updatable, newer Toyotas has version 3.0 - it's much better in terms of centering in sharp corners but it's updatable so authorities can enforce essentially whatever.
With more and more regulations it seems OTA is getting less desirable, like you buy a car but with an update it's less of a car (on purpose)

 

[Dewg]

It's likely not a bug, I've rented TMY before I've bought mine, and it was absolutely the same. In terms of torque on the steering wheel. It became worse due to camera monitoring and bans (before it was only AP disengage for the rest of the trip).
I've also asked about that and we agreed that it's likely EU thing (however Toyota that I had before didn't have such issue - resting a palm or finger on one side of a wheel was enough, almost never had to jiggle or increase downforce)

I find it hard to believe that EU mandates would require more torque to satisfy the requirement. I can see them requiring more frequent torque requests, but it just doesn't make sense that the torque being applied would not satisfy it.

In the US, we have more frequent requests, but the amount of torque has never changed. To this date I, and several others here, rarely get torque requests at all due to applying a small amount of force on the wheel while using ADAS functions, and the natural bends in the road are enough to move the wheel just a bit while applying that force. Even if I experiment, and let go of the wheel completely, when the torque requests come up, I put 1 finger on the wheel and move it either clockwise or counterclockwise and the request is satisfied.

I fully admit that I may be wrong, and the EU has demanded a higher amount of torque to satisfy the requirement - just under the amount required to disengage the system. That just seems really odd to me.

 

[JulienW]

Not really reading this thread but every time I read the title all I can see is the 2 false themes in one sentence.

 

[Handsome Jack]

I fully admit that I may be wrong, and the EU has demanded a higher amount of torque to satisfy the requirement - just under the amount required to disengage the system. That just seems really odd to me.

Oh, actually I've driven 3 Teslas in Europe that has the same characteristic - I was test driving Model Y for about an hour (I wanted to test if it worth to pay for an Enhanced Autopilot, in my case it didn't make sense) - it has the same requirement for the torque on the steering wheel.

It's either different in EU or maybe I've just got spoiled in Toyota vehicles (I've driven around 80,000km or ~50,000 miles on Toyota's autopilot)
I bet if Tesla autopilot was the first autopilot, I've seen I wouldn't complained.

 

[Bouba]

In my M3LR, I have found that the torque requirement meant the car needed steering side to side as it wobbled down the road

 

[DoctorWTF]

Meanwhile, the Comma aftermarket system can drive your car on the highway indefinitely without you having to lay a finger on the steering wheel, but the NHTSA has never bothered them about that:

comma.ai — make driving chill

open source driver assistance system that runs on 250+ car models

www.comma.ai