Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[ZTrekus]

OK so EITHER:

1. The radar went under the truck;

OR

2. The radar technology is such that it doesn't recognise still objects.


------------

I guess 1 is possible, but, like a torch - wouldn't the radar beam widen? I mean it is not a laser. Surely, it would bounce off the goddam side of a truck?

I have trouble with 2 also - I mean it's one thing for doppler reflected radar to measure relative speed of objects, but wouldn't a really sounding loud non-doppler shifted echo register also?

Either way - is this a programming error of mobil-eye? I mean don't they just need to program in the sides of vehicles as opposed to, you know, sky?

 

[jdw]

OK so EITHER:

1. The radar went under the truck;

OR

2. The radar technology is such that it doesn't recognise still objects.

Both are true. The radar in a tesla is a doppler radar, which picks up the speed at which something is moving away from or towards you. A stationary object is doing neither, and, on top of that, the gap under the truck allowed the camera and radar to still see road. With only one camera and the road still visible underneath, the large rectangle of a truck could look much like a large overhead sign. It is the same effect as if you tried to judge distance with only one eye open, or how you can block out the sun with your thumb.

A stereoscopic camera and Lidar would likely be required to resolve stationary objects size, placement and distance.

You can overcome some of the limitations in software, but you would likely increase the number of false positives, which would be very annoying.

The Tesla display will tell you whether you are primarily using the camera (you're following the blue lines) or the radar (you're following the blue car), and, as far as I can tell, the radar and camera are constantly compared to see if they agree with each other before an action like AEB is triggered.

 

[rluciano]

If the driver is operating the vehicle responsibly, with his or her hands on the wheel as per Tesla's instructions, then they won't receive any "nags" or alarms. Therefore, no problem.

Not my in my experience. If I hold the wheel exactly as I would without driver assistance, I get nags. I therefore pulse my grip to a tighter grip to stop the nags.

 

[ZTrekus]

Ahh I see... That is really useful to know. Blue car radar, blue lines camera.


Of course the radar knows when the blue car stops. But then it is receiving both radar plus visual data.

Here it may have received some stopped radar signals when the tractor trailer was across the road in front I guess, but not marrying them up to a vehicle image meant the programming ignored it as a stray signal I guess.

 

[Vitold]

1. There currently no confirmed fatal Autopilot crashes and from we know it was driver error in every circumstance accident occurred.

2. Current system does not expect objects on the road to float in the mid air. (keep in mind that camera/radar have limited field of vision and cannot look left right like you would to get better idea what the object is)

 

[X Yes?]

I can understand that the camera did not 'see' the tractor-trailer since it was white, it looked like sky, it was high up, it was side-on etc etc...


But how come the radar did not detect it and apply the brakes?


I just can't understand that.


-----

On another note - they ought to require tractor-trailers to have side curtains. Apparently that actually improves the wind resistance of the truck. But it also may assist the Tesla mobil-eye to 'see' it.

The system works 99% of the time, it's the 1% you need to keep alert for.

 

[Breezy]

Not my in my experience. If I hold the wheel exactly as I would without driver assistance, I get nags. I therefore pulse my grip to a tighter grip to stop the nags.

Sounds like some people have this problem, some people don't. The solution could be for Tesla to increase the sensitivity to detect a lighter force on the wheel. LKAS-type systems are becoming very common now, even on vehicles like the Honda Civic, and it appears that some manufacturers have zeroed in on the appropriate level of sensitivity to minimize false alarms.

 

[Vitold]

The system works 99% of the time, it's the 1% you need to keep alert for.

Or, don't use it (or take over) when conditions are not safe - similarly to cruise control.

 

[EVie'sDad]

OK so EITHER:

1. The radar went under the truck;

OR

2. The radar technology is such that it doesn't recognise still objects.


------------

I guess 1 is possible, but, like a torch - wouldn't the radar beam widen? I mean it is not a laser. Surely, it would bounce off the goddam side of a truck?

I have trouble with 2 also - I mean it's one thing for doppler reflected radar to measure relative speed of objects, but wouldn't a really sounding loud non-doppler shifted echo register also?

Either way - is this a programming error of mobil-eye? I mean don't they just need to program in the sides of vehicles as opposed to, you know, sky?

Definitely #1, I came up yesterday afternoon behind a bicycle about 25-20 feet in front of me at a turn, and the alarm triggered indicating I should pay attention, which I was as I was making a right turn (and no, autopilot was not on).

Often when trailing behind traffic going in the same direction, because I set following distance to 5 the vehicle will reduce speed if the vehicle in front of me slows down before making a turn, and that is what I expect the radar/camera to do.

I do not expect the car to handle cross traffic, stop signs or lights yet, but am looking forward to when that is enabled. We need to have more data collected on those scenarios, and then implement code and fine tune it, all under the direct supervision of the drivers.

Don't just tune out when you put the car in AP.

 

[PJF000]

I read somewhere that the driver of the vehicle changed to the slow lane in order to avoid the collision. If the truck was a B-double or had a trailer (which I also read it did) there would have been no escaping if the truck driver was coming across the fast lane to go to the slow lane (which I believe he was). So, add that to the fact the Tesla was speeding at greater than 85 mph, he had nowhere to go and at best the Mobil Eye version would have only given him a max. of 3 second warning if indeed it sensed the danger, and what you get is a probability of 1 in 130,000,000 of a death in a Tesla.

 

[SR22pilot]

When most people think of radar they think of scanning radar like that used by the military and at airports. The Tesla radar beam isn't scanned. Thus there is no information as to what direction the return came from. What Tesla know is the strength of a signal and its distance (return delay) and relative speed (Doppler shift). Thus the road surface, signs and stationary vehicles all have the same Doppler shift and, if at the same distance, return delay. In a few cases signal strength can be used to pull out a large stationary object from the background noise. An object crossing laterally has a Doppler shift almost the same as a stationary object. Scanning LIDAR, for example, would be a big help since the scanning beam would be able to tell the direction of the object.

I posted this in another thread. Iy shows that other manufacturers run into the same limitations.

The manual for the 2015 Hyundai Genesis contains the following warning related to automatic emergency braking (bold is mine):

The AEB does not detect:
- Persons or animals.
- Oncoming vehicles in the opposite lane or a vehicle in an intersection.
- Stopped objects.

The AEB cannot objects, when:
- The sensors are covered with dirt.
- There is heavy rain or heavy snow.
- There is interference by electromagnetic waves.
- There are strong radar reflections.
- Driving in a curve.
- Driving uphill or downhill.
- Driving in areas under construction.
- An object ahead is very narrow such as motorcycles or bicycles.
- A vehicle suddenly enters your lane.
- The camera cannot secure a clear view.
- The camera cannot catch the whole vehicle.
- An unusual shape vehicle is ahead such as a trailer, special access vehicle or a truck with unique shaped cargo.
- Driving at night, the tail lamp of the vehicle ahead is miss- ing, installed on an unusual place or installed unevenly.
- Coming in or out a tunnel, where the illumination inten-sity is high.

 

[CTShore]

Sounds like some people have this problem, some people don't. The solution could be for Tesla to increase the sensitivity to detect a lighter force on the wheel. LKAS-type systems are becoming very common now, even on vehicles like the Honda Civic, and it appears that some manufacturers have zeroed in on the appropriate level of sensitivity to minimize false alarms.

I get nags holding the wheel as well. Thought it might be that I have the heated steering wheel option.

 

[Blue heaven]

The system works 99% of the time, it's the 1% you need to keep alert for.

Very true, and drivers need to be alert 100% of the time as the 1% is unpredictable.

 

[pedriscoll]

Interestingly, I have never had a nag in 8 months of daily autopilot use. I generally keep at least one hand lightly on the wheel, but do take my hands off on occasion for 10-15 seconds.

 

[ZTrekus]

Maybe we are at the stage where autonomous cars need a little help. In other words, the sides of trucks should emit warning beacons in the form of lasers or radar signals or sonar or something... In fact any vehicle that is either stationary in the middle of the road, or relatively stationary in the sense that it is crossing it - should emit some form of hazard sign... Actually ships and aeroplanes use a green light for starboard and a red light for port since lights were invented. And perhaps some simple LEDs on the sides of vehicles might be enough for the mobil-eye to detect and do something about would do the trick.

 

[deonb]

All crashes alleged to have occurred because Forward Collision Warning (FCW) or Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) did not occur when expected.

Actually - this is easy.

Zero.

AEB wasn't expected to occur here. It was documented not to occur. And it didn't occur. So it worked as designed.

 

[ICUDoc]

I read somewhere that the driver of the vehicle changed to the slow lane in order to avoid the collision. If the truck was a B-double or had a trailer (which I also read it did) there would have been no escaping if the truck driver was coming across the fast lane to go to the slow lane (which I believe he was). So, add that to the fact the Tesla was speeding at greater than 85 mph, he had nowhere to go and at best the Mobil Eye version would have only given him a max. of 3 second warning if indeed it sensed the danger, and what you get is a probability of 1 in 130,000,000 of a death in a Tesla.

PJF000 (and others): is there a place where we can read about the accident?
I had never previously read about the 85+mph (!!!) speed or the details of the truck's route. Would be very interested.
My own small contribution to this discussion: read and follow the instructions. Pay attention.
Even if you "have to pay attention", I still find Autopilot very useful everyday...

 

[MP3Mike]

Actually - this is easy.

Zero.

AEB wasn't expected to occur here. It was documented not to occur. And it didn't occur. So it worked as designed.

You missed the key word: alleged

So if somebody alleged that AEB or FCW should have occurred, and that they expected it to, it has to be included it in the reporting.

 

[PJF000]

PJF000 (and others): is there a place where we can read about the accident?
I had never previously read about the 85+mph (!!!) speed or the details of the truck's route. Would be very interested.
My own small contribution to this discussion: read and follow the instructions. Pay attention.
Even if you "have to pay attention", I still find Autopilot very useful everyday...

Here's a start

Peter Diamandis
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/business/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-investigation.html
Tesla's Autopilot: The smart person's guide - TechRepublic

 

[paulp]

Assuming the unfortunate driver was alert and paying attention, and either didnt see the truck or couldnt react fast enough, than this accident has nothing to do with a tesla. It would have been the same outcome in any other vehicle.
Driver assistance features are not driver replacement features.