Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Interesting. She must have seen chiropractic for the snake oil it is within a few weeks. I doubt she finished.
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Elon Musk
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Interesting. She must have seen chiropractic for the snake oil it is within a few weeks. I doubt she finished.
Last I heard she's practicing somewhere around Washington DC. Before it was regulated (in the US at least) Chiropractic got a bad reputation because there were some screwballs doing it. Western States is basically a medical school with a specialization in chiropractic techniques. The first couple of years of the program are essentially the same as the first couple of years of medical school.
At least here in the western US chiropractic is well enough regarded many health insurance policies cover it and it's standard practice for someone to do a couple of months of work with a chiropractor after a car accident neck or back injury. Most car insurance policies will pay for that. It's a lot less invasive than back surgery or getting hooked on opiates. I know a lot of people who have been helped by it, including me though it isn't appropriate in every circumstance.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Interesting. Here in Europe chiropractic is looked upon as being about as evidence based as healing or aromatherapy.
Depends what's being treated in the adjustment. As you move from purely mechanical spine to neurological-body-wide there certainly is more and more room for BS.
Krugerrand
Meow
Um...no, but have no intention of explaining as it's clear it would be like having a political or religious conversation.
And suffice it to say, there are just as many physiotherapists who suck at their job and hurt people as there are chiropractors who such at their job and hurt people as there are doctors (in any field) who suck at their job and hurt people as there are massage therapists who suck at their job and hurt people, etc., etc., etc...
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Elon's father Errol's maternal grandmother was Canada's first female chiropractor (Almeda Halderman). Her son was a chiropractor too (Joshua Norman Haldeman) - Elon's grandfather. He was the one who moved to South Africa. Go figure. Sorry to bring the thread off topic but you guys must admit that was one helluva nice way to bring it full circle back on topic? 
Here in the states insurance companies (particularly auto policies) are quite willing to pay for chiropractic sessions versus surgical intervention which is much more expensive.
I agree with Kruger in that it is like anything in life....there is a wide variety of competency.
I agree with Kruger in that it is like anything in life....there is a wide variety of competency.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Just to put the last comment here from me on chiropractic: Naturally there will be skilled and less skilled people doing whatever they are doing. I'm talking about "the science" of chiropractic which is not founded on sound evidence based principles. The first person to practice chiropractic, or you could say to invent it, was was D.D. Palmer. Before he invented chiropractic his main income came from being a "magnetic healer".
Now, I'm well aware that in modern times most chiropractic school and recently trained chiropractors have tried to bring their practice closer to modern evidence based medicine, but they're still caught in some kind of twilight zone in between modern biology, medicine and knowledge-based practice on one had and magical thinking, alternative medicine and quackery on the other hand. Just seeing the responses here, that in the US much of what defines whether something is a "proper" medical science or not has mostly to do with 1) if it gets reimbursed by insurance and 2) that it isn't causing harm, is telling as to the reasons for the strong position chiropractic is in. I think of it mostly as a brilliantly packaged business model, with over 100 years of brand name building behind it.
Now, I'm well aware that in modern times most chiropractic school and recently trained chiropractors have tried to bring their practice closer to modern evidence based medicine, but they're still caught in some kind of twilight zone in between modern biology, medicine and knowledge-based practice on one had and magical thinking, alternative medicine and quackery on the other hand. Just seeing the responses here, that in the US much of what defines whether something is a "proper" medical science or not has mostly to do with 1) if it gets reimbursed by insurance and 2) that it isn't causing harm, is telling as to the reasons for the strong position chiropractic is in. I think of it mostly as a brilliantly packaged business model, with over 100 years of brand name building behind it.
It is a trifle of to be having this discussion here at TMC, probably yet another indication that we are all "outliers" in a psychological sense without reference to the precision of that term.
First, Myers and Briggs, a mother/daughter Jungian team, were almost deified when I was studying clinical psychology in graduate school. I became so convinced of the value of MBTI that I administered it to every employee in the companies I controlled.
Second, although this forum is not ideal for discussion of detail, INTJ does, I agree, tend to correlate significantly (by the social science standards) with high performance in areas that do not demand high degreees of social interactions. However that also is the fourth most common type among leaders, often IMHO ones who are known for quirkiness and a bit of autotocratic tendency. I'd wager Elon is probably INTJ, but despite having administered MBTI for decades my guesses are often wrong.
Third, The largest mode of leaders are STJ which reflects the need for leader to have a high degree of sense for other people's attitudes, while being a bit analylitic and decisive too. Even so they are not even close to a majority.
The following two links give some easy to digest data. They do not discuss the correlations between tests of general knowledge, cultural awareness, specific knowledge or academic potential. Just as has been implied here almost all these tests do have a degree of correlation with each other. Among test designers that is generally thought to be somewhat of a literacy bias in that almost all of them to require reading and writing. During the last couple of decades the once-promoted idea of a linguistic bias in favor of the native language of the test has been largely discounted.
myersbriggs.org
nbmbaa.org
If I had to guess, I'd say Elon was INTJ too.
I was saying iNtuitives were a minority compared to Sensors in the general population. There are many places where you will find more Ns than Ss in a given sub-population. Mensa is just one of the most lopsided, but I've noticed in engineering R&D tends to be dominated by Ns and other areas of engineering like field service, production, etc. tend to be mostly Ss. When I took the MBTI training (late 90s) my class was about 2/3 N.
I wasn't talking about specific types and wasn't talking only about people in leadership positions. From the numbers I've seen ISTJ and ISFJ are the most common types in the general population, but neither are a majority. With 16 types the mix would be pretty skewed if any one type was a majority.
No model covers everything. IQ essentially measures a person's ability to learn quickly. Someone came up with an untimed IQ test and Sensors did much better on it, though iNtuitives did the same. Most iQ tests though are timed.
Myers Briggs (and Jung's underlying theory) covers some important areas of personality, but it just focuses on how you gather data and how you make decisions on information. There are many other facets of personality than just those things. I've been on a forum for my type since 1995 and my SO is the same type. We have a lot in common, but there are clear differences too.
In any case I do think Elon Musk is an INTJ. One with almost a work obsession (it goes way beyond a work ethic) and an intense drive to change the world. Many INTJs I know are satisfied being great at what they do, sometimes top of their profession, but I haven't known too many INTJs who were also revolutionaries.
On top of all that it appears to me that Elon's ability to learn quickly goes beyond most INTJs. From Ashley Vance's book, it sounds like Elon can read and digest a staggeringly large amount of information in a very short period of time. He has an unusual combination of abilities that is the perfect combination to do what he's doing.
I have a lot of skepticism in general for the MBTI. Anything that tries to create binary buckets has little place in my view of how personalities really work. Thankfully, I also have some support from the science community on the my views of MBTI.
There are also reams of studies that show the MBTI measures what it says it measures and compares it to other psychological instruments. The MBTI Manual details many of these studies and is quite the read if you like exhaustive scientific research journal reading.
Mainstream Psychology has never quite accepted the MBTI because neither Briggs nor Myers were trained Psychologists. A lot of professions look down on people who didn't "join the club" as inferior and never take them seriously.
My SO has to deal with it in the legal profession. Some states allow people to do an apprenticeship instead of going to law school. California and Washington are two of the states that have this program. Studies have shown that law clerks (people who take the apprenticeship route) pass the bar at a higher rate than those who go through law school and they are productive in a real law office from day 1 instead of taking more than a year to learn the nitty gritty of actually practicing law. But the lawyers who went through law school look down on those who went through the law clerk program. Oregon and Washington have a reciprocity program that any attorney who has practiced in one state can become licensed in the other without taking the bar again, except Oregon won't accept law clerks, even if they are one of the top lawyers in Washington.
On top of the lack of acceptance because of its pedigree, type has become corrupted in the hands of the general public who get just enough information to become dangerous and run with it. To further muddy the waters, one of the most popular type books was written by David Keirsey in the late 70s. He had a completely different personality theory and when he wrote his book, his publisher got him to incorporate MBTI into it in a weird mishmash of the two theories. The two have a surface similarity, but if you delve into the inner workings they are completely different.
The MBTI is far from a complete picture of personality, but if used correctly it's a useful tool for understanding humanity.
Back to the lack of acceptance from peers thing, Elon Musk is dealing with that to some extent from the car business. Many car industry people still don't take Elon or Tesla seriously because they are outsiders who have the audacity to try and build cars. I don't recall DeLorean faced the kind of headwinds Tesla has faced from the industry because John DeLorean was already a car industry insider when he started the company and DeLorean was a shakier thing than Tesla from the start. DMC failed after about 2 years of production, but Tesla is still around after 8 years producing three different models with a 4th on the way.
Being a successful outsider may get you praise from outside your industry, but don't expect universal acceptance from your peers many of whom will always see you as an interloper on their turf.
Mainstream Psychology has never quite accepted the MBTI because neither Briggs nor Myers were trained Psychologists. A lot of professions look down on people who didn't "join the club" as inferior and never take them seriously.
My SO has to deal with it in the legal profession. Some states allow people to do an apprenticeship instead of going to law school. California and Washington are two of the states that have this program. Studies have shown that law clerks (people who take the apprenticeship route) pass the bar at a higher rate than those who go through law school and they are productive in a real law office from day 1 instead of taking more than a year to learn the nitty gritty of actually practicing law. But the lawyers who went through law school look down on those who went through the law clerk program. Oregon and Washington have a reciprocity program that any attorney who has practiced in one state can become licensed in the other without taking the bar again, except Oregon won't accept law clerks, even if they are one of the top lawyers in Washington.
On top of the lack of acceptance because of its pedigree, type has become corrupted in the hands of the general public who get just enough information to become dangerous and run with it. To further muddy the waters, one of the most popular type books was written by David Keirsey in the late 70s. He had a completely different personality theory and when he wrote his book, his publisher got him to incorporate MBTI into it in a weird mishmash of the two theories. The two have a surface similarity, but if you delve into the inner workings they are completely different.
The MBTI is far from a complete picture of personality, but if used correctly it's a useful tool for understanding humanity.
Back to the lack of acceptance from peers thing, Elon Musk is dealing with that to some extent from the car business. Many car industry people still don't take Elon or Tesla seriously because they are outsiders who have the audacity to try and build cars. I don't recall DeLorean faced the kind of headwinds Tesla has faced from the industry because John DeLorean was already a car industry insider when he started the company and DeLorean was a shakier thing than Tesla from the start. DMC failed after about 2 years of production, but Tesla is still around after 8 years producing three different models with a 4th on the way.
Being a successful outsider may get you praise from outside your industry, but don't expect universal acceptance from your peers many of whom will always see you as an interloper on their turf.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
MBTI is the "modern day" equivalent of past ages' need to classify human personality in to distinct systems:
In antiquity the greeks had 4 types - sanguine, choleric, melancholic and phlegmatic. These in turn corresponded to the four elements: water, fire, earth, air.
MBTI is just as evidence based and founded on sound scientific principles as the antique greek theory (that is without foundation)
Goodbye to MBTI, the Fad That Won’t Die
In antiquity the greeks had 4 types - sanguine, choleric, melancholic and phlegmatic. These in turn corresponded to the four elements: water, fire, earth, air.
MBTI is just as evidence based and founded on sound scientific principles as the antique greek theory (that is without foundation)
Goodbye to MBTI, the Fad That Won’t Die
as wdolson implied, the MBTI has limited use but that is valuable. Understanding that all it does is show individuals how they tend to gather information and process it. Nothing more. When people try to use MBTI for diagnosis it simply does not work. When they try to draw inferences to intelligence that too does not work.
Problems with nearly all tools become glaringly obvious when one tries to use them for unintended purposes. We might well have another thread discussing scientific methodology and the nature of hypothesis, test, refinement and theory. Nearly all the studies discrediting MBTI try to evaluate it for doing things it was not intended to do. It is certainly not perfect.
If Elon is so upset with global warning why go to Mars? Isn't Mars a global warming has-been? "Hey guys it's getting too warm here but I can take you to a place where it's totally trashed. No Air, no blue sky, no green grass, no blue water, It's pure red dirt. Please follow me!" Can someone explain the logic with this? I love Elon but would hate for him to end up on Mars making red dirt patties. At least shoot for a place better than earth like heaven.
For humans to have the best chance to survive long-term (thousands of years), we have to be a multi planetary species. It doesn't make sense to put all our eggs in one basket, when a single wayward asteroid, or any number of other events, can destroy all life on earth. It's that simple.
"For humans to have the best chance to survive long-term (thousands of years), we have to be a multi planetary species. It doesn't make sense to put all our eggs in one basket, when a single wayward asteroid, or any number of other events, can destroy all life on earth. It's that simple."
Besides, Mars is the ultimate "fixer-upper". A little work, a few hundred years and it's prime real estate. (OK, a lot of work).
(Image from National Geographic)
Besides, Mars is the ultimate "fixer-upper". A little work, a few hundred years and it's prime real estate. (OK, a lot of work).
(Image from National Geographic)
Mars is chosen because it is the closest planet to earth. It's like to be able sail across the sea, you start with kayaking down the closest river nearby. So far humanity has only dipped her toes into the bathtub.
Successful colonization of Mars involves solving multiple problems that will make humans more awesome, and less likely to be wiped out by a big rock.
It's not like he's saying "Batteries schmatteries, EVs schmeevees, solar schmolar, let's go to Mars!"
Let's just start with two of the SpaceX steps:
- Full, rapid re-usability:
- - much cheaper satellites, because failure will be an option
- - much cheaper satellite communications
Are you ready for wholesale disruption of Internet, communications and broadcasting?
And wouldn't it be nice if we could, relatively cheaply, launch a lot of devices better to to help detect big rocks that might be coming our way?
- Methane-powered Raptor rocket engine
Wouldn't it be nice to have sustainably-produced, clean-burning rocket fuel in stead of burning through lots of petroleum when there are lots of cheap launches? There's a good reason why SpaceX got some matching funding from the Air Force for the Raptor project.
There's so much more that's necessary, but just those two things would be really positive.
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