mspohr
Well-Known Member
Electrify everything is the only way out of the climate disaster.
It's only going to get more expensive if we wait.
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Electrify Everything
- Thread starter ItsNotAboutTheMoney
- Start date
It's only going to get more expensive if we wait.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Washington post has a hit piece on EVs.
Here's a good rebuttal.
cleantechnica.com
Here's a good rebuttal.
Electric Car Haters Go On The Attack - CleanTechnica
Does an electric car create emissions during manufacture? Of course. But the Washington Post inflates their impact to scare readers.
cleantechnica.com
You keep saying that as though it's just a switch we have to flip and it'll all be fixed in a few years. The US uses ~100,000 petajoules(10^15) every year, which even if a good chunk of that is inefficiency/refining/etc, that is still a metric sh|t f*&k ton of energy. Got a magic wand to just wave 1,000,000 MW of green generating capacity and associated transmission infrastructure into existence?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Let's just say that if the fossil industry had not been blocking progress for the past 40 years or so, we would be much further along. Perhaps done. And your children would not have to look forward to a world ravaged by climate change
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I never said it wouldn't be hard.
It is, however, imperative that we do it.
We have been taking a go slow, cautious, it's too expensive approach and the disaster just keeps getting worse.
It will only get more expensive.
You say that as though fossil fuel companies aren't owned, operated and staffed by Americans, providing an end product to Americans who elect a government that exports democracy to countries that aren't pumping their oil fast enough.
There is no way I would ever bring a child into this absolute clusterf**k of a world, so no skin in the game for me.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Depending what science article one cares to read, a kWh of dirty energy costs society somewhere between 30¢ -- 80¢
It costs around 2¢ - 5¢ to generate a renewable kWh
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
You can start and end you arguments right there. Sociopaths are a dime a dozen. Occasionally one makes it into the White House.
As for the 'we did this to ourselves' argument, I am sympathetic to that POV but I'm also very much aware that the fossil industry bought the political apparatus and flooded the electorate with misinformation
Some would feel that multiple solutions would be best.
If home electricity goes out, a small, fueled generator could take over to provide gas furnace fan and controls, gas stove would still be functional, but need a flame to kick on. Wood fireplace could also provide warmth and evening light. Natural gas much cheaper to run for heat and dryer than electricity in most areas as well.
Society should give people choices, not cram their own beliefs down their throats.
If EVs could replace 50-75% of all vehicle travel, that would also go a long way to providing a cleaner earth. Maybe no need to shoot for 100%...of anything.
If home electricity goes out, a small, fueled generator could take over to provide gas furnace fan and controls, gas stove would still be functional, but need a flame to kick on. Wood fireplace could also provide warmth and evening light. Natural gas much cheaper to run for heat and dryer than electricity in most areas as well.
Society should give people choices, not cram their own beliefs down their throats.
If EVs could replace 50-75% of all vehicle travel, that would also go a long way to providing a cleaner earth. Maybe no need to shoot for 100%...of anything.
$.80 is being overly generous with the externalities , and I doubt $0.02 is even possible on the Orkney islands. You also have to take into account that a decent chunk of the fossil fuel cost is labor, and we all know how much the government likes unemployment.
There are collective problem resulting from individual choices. Pollution impacts are a prime example where we have clear negative externalities arising from individual choices.
We can't expect independent individual action to solve collective problems when businesses seek profit and consumers are financially constrained and their most profitable individual choices are the ones that leads to collective harm. It's naive to think otherwise.
Instead you need a collective decision to constrain the actions, and then provide collective support for those who made honest unconstrained decisions in the past who are negatively impacted by the new constraints.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Is someone who says "I acted in my own short-sighted, happily ignorant of externalities best interest' enough to get on the dole ? How about 3/4 of a dole ? Are you going to negotiate ?
Sounds great. I'd love it if you could attend one of my HOA board meetings to try to convince them retrofitting our entire ~250 unit association is the only option, at any cost. You can start by refuting their claim that switching our two community pool/spa heaters from natural gas to a solar-powered heat pump setup has a 65-year ROI (yes, I asked, and yes, they researched it).
Exactly this. How many new coal-fired power plants is China bringing online this year? Meanwhile, despite the fact that I now have two Teslas parked in my garage, I find myself trying to be convinced it's a moral imperative to dump thousands of dollars into retrofitting my house such that I never use natural gas to boil a pot of water ever again....., even though if I did, I'd just be using electricity sourced from a natural gas plant which SCE would be happy to sell me for $0.60/kWh or more (we, as with most people, tend to cook from 4p-9p when juice is the most expensive).
I strongly agree, and this is the crux of it. Some of us may have the luxury of choice concerning where our energy comes from, but the majority of people will continue to be guided by personal economics, and expecting otherwise would be foolish.
A family makes heat and cooks food using a fireplace, and someone barks at them that they're polluting the air, and that they should spend years of their income on efficient electric systems for heating and cooking. It's just not gonna happen.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Everybody has a sob story, if not malignant self-centeredness. Pollution has costs, and those costs need to be internalized. After that, society can decide how it wants to redistribute wealth and resources. But we HAVE TO start with an honest accounting of costs or the solutions are perverse.
500% tax on natural gas would fix that ROI really quick. They should make it more expensive to pull carbon out of the ground than it is to create hydrocarbon fuels with renewable energy, carbon capture, and chemical processes, unless it's really necessary to be using hydrocarbon fuels in the first place (which is basically restricted to aviation and rockets).
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