Even if there isn't an outright ban, you probably won't want to buy gas water heaters and furnaces, or even ICE vehicles for daily use, at some point. Synthetic, carbon neutral fuels are too expensive.
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Electrify Everything
- Thread starter ItsNotAboutTheMoney
- Start date
What is all this "never" talk? Of course NG will be banned at some point. You will die and your condo will be torn down all way before "never".
Just for kicks, Andy, what year was your condo built and how old are you?
Your attitude is why boomers get such a bad rap. You can't seem to understand change and the future. You don't seem to have any forward vision, you just want to whine about how potentially hard it is for you financially. That is just greed from where I am sitting.
Thinking of moving to CA and rallying for ban on NG completely and totally by 2025 just because of your attitude.
Would that sting less than a major fracking disaster, combined with continued Russian aggression and a ton more LNG capability causing NG to be 5X the price it is today? Germany pays 5X what we do. Italy 4X.
Just for kicks, Andy, what year was your condo built and how old are you?
Your attitude is why boomers get such a bad rap. You can't seem to understand change and the future. You don't seem to have any forward vision, you just want to whine about how potentially hard it is for you financially. That is just greed from where I am sitting.
Thinking of moving to CA and rallying for ban on NG completely and totally by 2025 just because of your attitude.
Would that sting less than a major fracking disaster, combined with continued Russian aggression and a ton more LNG capability causing NG to be 5X the price it is today? Germany pays 5X what we do. Italy 4X.
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None of your business and it doesn't matter, but your use of the term "boomer" in a derogatory manner tells me all I need to know.
My monthly natural gas bill is under $20. The usage is basically nothing.
I've already got two Teslas parked in my garage. You can't say I'm not doing my part. But natural gas isn't going away any time soon and given the absolutely tiny amount of it I use to cook dinner on my stove means it makes zero sense to force me and who knows how many thousands (millions?) of others to spend a ton of money to overhaul our homes for the sole purpose of eliminating its usage.
In case everyone missed this the last time I posted it...
Jason Fenske (of Engineering Explained) did a video where he explained that the cost of carbon neutral synthetic fuels for ICE vehicles was around $38/gallon. This is roughly 10x what it would cost today.
Your $20 natural gas bill could easily become $200 if you insist on clinging to chemical fuels past the time that taking carbon out of the ground to use for fuel is banned. I expect fuels like this to be used in industries where the energy density actually matters (industries like aviation for example, where it takes fuel to lift fuel). But natural gas is basically the antithesis of energy density because it's mostly methane, which is way less dense than most (liquid or solid) chemical fuels. Energy density - Wikipedia Most of the commonly used chemical fuels based on hydrocarbon chains have energy densities between 30-40 MJ/L and 35-45 MJ/kg. And while natural gas has an even higher energy stored per unit mass of > 50 MJ/kg, it is so sparse (it is a gas after all) and takes up so much space that it has a horrible density per unit volume of < 0.05 MJ/L, making it impractical to put on an aircraft.
And when heating water or air in a home:
1. You don't really care about the energy density of the fuel, not per unit mass or per unit volume, because the fuel isn't being stored in a moving vehicle and fuel isn't being used to transport the fuel
2. Cost of the fuel itself becomes a big issue and this will rise dramatically after taking it out of the ground gets banned
I have seen exactly zero proposals to ban natural gas for cooking. Cooking also doesn't use very much energy compared to something like heating water or heating the air. I haven't seen any proposals to ban propane/natural gas barbecues or charcoal barbecues either, because that cannot be duplicated with electricity, just like there are certain things you can do on a gas stove that cannot be duplicated with electricity. But as far as heating water or heating your home is concerned, the experience is the same no matter what's fueling the heater. But honestly, even if natural gas goes all synthetic, cooking with it isn't going to break the bank. The big energy users are the water heater and HVAC system so as long as you convert those, you won't run into big issues with cost. If they decide to no longer maintain a distribution system due to low usage you might have to convert to propane and put a tank outside though...
mspohr
Well-Known Member
From TFA:
2 words: solar panels.
California offers a very generous rebate for installing solar on houses. Even natural gas will skyrocket in price as supplies dwindle.
-- K ([email protected]), August 13, 2001.
Correct, and if you've read my previous posts I've already said that I'm okay with converting my furnace-based HVAC to a heat-pump system - such a conversion wouldn't require any new circuits to be retrofitted. The same (mostly) goes for the water heater. Although I have concerns about noise, I could most likely make a heat pump water heater work here, too.
By your own admission:
Exactly this. Replacing my gas range with an electric one would have an immeasurable impact on the climate but an absolutely massive impact on my wallet. It makes zero sense. So a blanket "ban" on natural gas is a bad idea, and for this reason there should never be one.
Hmm... this looks like a suspect article that someone wrote just to push their cause. There's a lot of false information on the web.
I'm telling you: split system water heater is the way to go. Compressor goes outside the building envelope and noise stays outside too (for the most part).
Sure
I disagree. It's a fraction of the cost of a kitchen remodel which you will have to do anyway at some point. It comes down to personal preference but in the long run, it's not a very big expense compared to maintaining everything else in your kitchen and keeping it up to date.
I don't think we will see a blanket ban on hydrocarbon fuels for use in cooking, but we're more likely to see economy of scale issues in delivering the fuel. Once most people have converted HVAC and water heating over to electricity, there won't be very many people using natural gas, and the gas company will either have to dramatically raise rates on everyone else who remains in order to maintain the distribution system or (more likely) just shut down the distribution network entirely. And then people who still want to use gas to cook with will need to convert to propane and get fuel deliveries.
Did you check the date? The article was published over 20 years ago.
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why you're here.
You keep whinging about (mostly) hypothetical problems with your situation. We offer potential solutions. You immediately reject our advice.
Do you just enjoy whinging or are you looking for solutions?
My presence is to provide a counterpoint to what is otherwise an echo chamber and a firm belief that "Electrify Everything", no matter the cost, is not a good idea. Everyone has a unique situation and what's best for you might not be what's best for everyone. Admittedly, I seem to be failing at it.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
No one is saying ‘no matter the cost’; The cap should be ~$50k per 2 bedroom home. If it’s more than that…. sure…. keep gas
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I would appreciate constructive feedback on these ideas. However, you frivolously dismiss every suggestion we give and whinge on about your miserable situation.
Definitely, you're going to find that most people here agree with moving towards electrification. Coming here to disagree isn't going to be beneficial to anyone... it's not like it's a moral wrong that needs to be corrected.
People used to use oil lamps for light before the "electrified lamp". Most technology that requires energy uses electricity, seems like transportation and home heat are some of the last major holdouts.
I can't imagine combustible fuel in my computer, cell phone, refrigerator, or any other appliance. If that were the case, I sure wouldn't be coming to these forums to argue against switching to electric.
No one's going to force you to spend tens of thousands to change to an electric stovetop. The government typically first regulates that *new construction* makes the switch, then provides subsidies for existing structures, then a long time from now they'll consider gas "not up to code", and people making major updates will be required to switch to electric. Just like how it is now with hardwired smoke detectors.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
NOVA always lots of good stuff..... EVERYTHING.
Too bad they didn’t get to drive a CyberTruck instead of the electric F-150. Wouldn’t have taken them twice as long to get where they were going.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Cut your fossil pollution by at least 90% and we might let you keep your bowels.
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