Dual chargers

[SW2Fiddler]

Don't disagree with the sentiment, but the facts seem to support the opposite. Dual chargers used to at least be a factory option, and now they are not. You can have a second charger installed by the Service Center, but even that is not widely publicized. I have to wonder if Tesla is going to settle for 10 kW on-board Level 2 charging on the assumption that it's enough for home use, and a more extensive Supercharger network will handle all of the away-from-home needs.

~picks the mic back up~
Removing the second-charger Factory Option strongly supports the speculation that the choice of ordering a 10kW-throttled Tesla is going away. Keeping a service-center "add a charger" item supports legacy 10kW-throttled Models S into the future. Lowering the price of this upgrade is in line with my rose-colored prediction too.

And it resolves the dissonance of proliferating "Destination Charging at >40A" and "Default 40A Limit" does it not?

Both of our interpretations make sense according to our assumptions. I'm just assuming that what is the case in May is not necessarily what is true in September. (full disclosure: I paid for my Parcel Shelf and over a grand for my HPWC... because of when I bought)

 

[beeeerock]

Yes, I think it's a decision to be based around your planned travel routes and what infrastructure is available to you. Others have told me (in other threads) that a CHAdeMO adapter is money better spent over dual chargers. Problem is, in my case there are no CHAdeMO chargers on the routes I take but tons of high power J1772 stations. You may never come across the need for dual chargers just as I may never come across the need for a CHAdeMO adapter.

I've been sifting through plugshare etc. looking for CHAdeMO chargers near me and have found that they aren't very plentiful. Yet. The smaller J1772's are more common and *my perception* is that they are typically not useful for double charger cars. Some are, certainly, and some are - partially - but the ability to get the full 80 amps doesn't seem to be the typical situation. I've considered the possibility that the CHAdeMO adapter might be a better investment, just as you've noted!

I always try co council folks to install the highest capacity station that they can, but you make a good point here. At a hotel, maybe two 30 or 40 amp J1772 stations would make more sense than 1 - 80 amp station. In some ways I like the 1 - 80 amp model because someone needing a quick(er) charge can get it, and if you have overnight guests, the first one can unplug in half the time and allow guest #2 access.

It's interesting that Tesla is pushing HPWCs (80 amp devices) for destinations like hotels, although they can be configured for lower output.

Using the hotel example, who is going to want to walk outside in their complimentary shower robe at 1 in the morning, to plug their car in when the other guy finishes? Will the other guy be awake to unlock the charger? I think charge stations at hotels and motels should be configured to allow a full charge overnight, and thus allow the driver to leave his car in the stall while he sleeps. Playing musical chairs at 1 in the morning doesn't work for me!

I think that many people are arguing over which bad solution is better! If stopping at noon for a charge is required before reaching your destination in the evening, I don't think the single, double, or even a hypothetical triple charger system would really bring EV's into the mainstream. The Supercharger network is the solution, and I think even it will have to be improved as battery and cooling technology advances, to really make it acceptable to the masses.

J1772 charging mid-trip is still a BandAid solution in my mind, no matter whether you have one or two chargers in the car. Stopping at a Supercharger is like pulling into a full serve gas station. J1772 is more like stopping in the desert near a fuel cache situated 100 meters off the road, manually pumping a 5 gallon Jerry can full and carrying it back and forth. Having two Jerry cans makes the process twice as fast, but it still sucks.

- - - Updated - - -

Single Charger will go the way of the 60kWh battery and for the same reason. Unless it's a new, more efficient, single 20kW (or greater!) unit.

I have to disagree... I think the onboard charger will ultimately be sized for a reasonable charge time overnight, with the expectation that DC chargers, capable of making the 20 kW look like a hand-cranked generator, will become the mid-trip recharging solution. 20 kW is only half as bad as 10 kW, but it's still bad... ;-)

And another general comment addressed to nobody in particular... if you're travelling in the cold of winter, would you want to unplug your car at midnight to allow the next guy to plug in, or would you want to leave yours connected so it could keep the batteries warm and be toasty for your departure - without taking a chunk of your charge before you even leave the parking lot?

 

[SW2Fiddler]

I've been sifting through plugshare etc. looking for CHAdeMO chargers near me and have found that they aren't very plentiful. Yet. The smaller J1772's are more common and *my perception* is that they are typically not useful for double charger cars. Some are, certainly, and some are - partially - but the ability to get the full 80 amps doesn't seem to be the typical situation. Yet.

FixedThatForYou

Yes when I'm at a hotel with HPWCs I plug in but with dual chargers, I am back at full battery before dinner. Leaving the charger for the next person. Last trip I noticed the next Model S was plugged in all night, totaling at least 12 hours straight. It had dealer plates, I chalked it up to noobthusiasm.
And though the parking spot (see my profile pic) is marked Tesla Electric Vehicle Parking, when charged enough I move Pearlie May out of the (nice, prime, elevator-adjacent) Tesla Parking spot. For the next guy to plug in.
Make of this what you will.

Rick

 

[mknox]

Using the hotel example, who is going to want to walk outside in their complimentary shower robe at 1 in the morning, to plug their car in when the other guy finishes? Will the other guy be awake to unlock the charger? I think charge stations at hotels and motels should be configured to allow a full charge overnight, and thus allow the driver to leave his car in the stall while he sleeps. Playing musical chairs at 1 in the morning doesn't work for me!

I can't disagree, and was even kinda thinking that when I posted my earlier comment. What I will typically do is leave a note on my dash saying when it's okay to unplug me, so at least a late arriver may be able to get some juice.

I have to disagree... I think the onboard charger will ultimately be sized for a reasonable charge time overnight, with the expectation that DC chargers, capable of making the 20 kW look like a hand-cranked generator, will become the mid-trip recharging solution. 20 kW is only half as bad as 10 kW, but it's still bad... ;-)

I came to that same conclusion myself in another post above.

I think maybe a lot of this discussion has to do with timing as well. When I got my car over two years ago, we were still over a year from seeing any Superchargers in Canada, but lots of 70 and 80 amp J1772 stations were opening up. The dual charger option was a lifesaver for me. The paradigm might now be shifting to 40 amp Level 2 charging at home and destinations, with DC Fast charging on the road.

 

[Canuck]

Yes, it is the internet and you can type what ever you want no matter how absurd.
Zero inconsistencies, you will just want to go back and reread my replies until you understand that.
But still, you need to get a life!!

Okay, I did what you asked and reread your replies. Here's a recap:

You come here and post speculation as if it's fact regarding the removal of dual chargers from the factory build. When called on it, you say it's not speculation, but comes from inside sources. When asked for sources, you give contradictory information. When called on your contradictory sources, you say that since you live close to the Tesla factory and headquarters you have this information. I reply with my Sara Palin joke. That's the summary of our exchange.

Wait, one more thing, I have a very good life, thank you. But you might want to read this:

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jaff]

I think perhaps your statement here needs a qualifier akin to "here in the U.S."...I know of no one here in Canada who added the dual charging feature thinking it was to accommodate Supercharging...we didn't even have a Supercharger in Canada before 2014...

Too many people mistakenly thought they needed dual chargers to supercharge at the fastest rate and purchased the option when they had no need for it. That was a failure of education on Tesla's part and a failure of researching on the buyer's part.

 

[David99]

I can't disagree, and was even kinda thinking that when I posted my earlier comment. What I will typically do is leave a note on my dash saying when it's okay to unplug me, so at least a late arriver may be able to get some juice.

That doesn't work for two reasons. #1 you can't unplug a Tesla without the key. #2 when the second guest arrives, is he supposed to wait 3 hours until you're done and then come back to change plugs?

Destination charging is really a great example where dual chargers have no advantage and even cause ineffective use of resources. Hence my earlier comment about rather having two 40 Amp chargers than one 80 Amp HPWC. I totally would have gone with dual chargers if I were in Canada. But for destination chargers, the better option is clearly to have more 40 Amp chargers than less 80 Amp chargers.

 

[mknox]

That doesn't work for two reasons. #1 you can't unplug a Tesla without the key.

You can unplug a J1772 station from the Tesla adapter without a key. The adapter will stay locked in the port.

But I do agree that at a longer duration destination, more lower powered stations are preferable. For short duration stay locations (restaurants etc.) then the faster the better.

 

[Cottonwood]

Destination charging is really a great example where dual chargers have no advantage and even cause ineffective use of resources. Hence my earlier comment about rather having two 40 Amp chargers than one 80 Amp HPWC. I totally would have gone with dual chargers if I were in Canada. But for destination chargers, the better option is clearly to have more 40 Amp chargers than less 80 Amp chargers.

If Destination Charging is only for overnight charging, you are correct. However, I have used 70 and 80 Amp charging many times for lunch time top up on routes in the 200-300 mile length where having the double charging speed makes all the difference. Many "Destination Charging" spots are happy for you to charge while you eat at their restaurant.

The real answer is some of both. I am helping with a new Community Center in Boulder. We want J1772 for maximum flexibility and will be installing one 70-Amp J1772 because I got a good deal on one a couple of years ago, and it's sitting in my garage, and a 48-Amp J1772 because that is the sweet price point in the Clipper Creek line. Both spots will be for EV Charging or 15 min Drop Off near the entrance to get some dual use of the spots. We looked into CHAdeMO, but could not justify the cost. My guess is that most use will be from Leaf style EV's, but we will have higher power for the occasional Tesla in need.

 

[andrewket]

I've been sifting through plugshare etc. looking for CHAdeMO chargers near me and have found that they aren't very plentiful. Yet. The smaller J1772's are more common and *my perception* is that they are typically not useful for double charger cars. Some are, certainly, and some are - partially - but the ability to get the full 80 amps doesn't seem to be the typical situation. I've considered the possibility that the CHAdeMO adapter might be a better investment, just as you've noted!



Using the hotel example, who is going to want to walk outside in their complimentary shower robe at 1 in the morning, to plug their car in when the other guy finishes? Will the other guy be awake to unlock the charger? I think charge stations at hotels and motels should be configured to allow a full charge overnight, and thus allow the driver to leave his car in the stall while he sleeps. Playing musical chairs at 1 in the morning doesn't work for me!

I think that many people are arguing over which bad solution is better! If stopping at noon for a charge is required before reaching your destination in the evening, I don't think the single, double, or even a hypothetical triple charger system would really bring EV's into the mainstream. The Supercharger network is the solution, and I think even it will have to be improved as battery and cooling technology advances, to really make it acceptable to the masses.

J1772 charging mid-trip is still a BandAid solution in my mind, no matter whether you have one or two chargers in the car. Stopping at a Supercharger is like pulling into a full serve gas station. J1772 is more like stopping in the desert near a fuel cache situated 100 meters off the road, manually pumping a 5 gallon Jerry can full and carrying it back and forth. Having two Jerry cans makes the process twice as fast, but it still sucks.

- - - Updated - - -


I have to disagree... I think the onboard charger will ultimately be sized for a reasonable charge time overnight, with the expectation that DC chargers, capable of making the 20 kW look like a hand-cranked generator, will become the mid-trip recharging solution. 20 kW is only half as bad as 10 kW, but it's still bad... ;-)

And another general comment addressed to nobody in particular... if you're travelling in the cold of winter, would you want to unplug your car at midnight to allow the next guy to plug in, or would you want to leave yours connected so it could keep the batteries warm and be toasty for your departure - without taking a chunk of your charge before you even leave the parking lot?

If the hotel is willing to install 2x40A EVSEs rather than one 80A, sure. I'll take that. But then the conversation will evolve to "why didn't they install two 80A EVSEs? They could support 4 cars overnight that way!"

 

[David99]

If Destination Charging is only for overnight charging, you are correct. However, I have used 70 and 80 Amp charging many times for lunch time top up on routes in the 200-300 mile length where having the double charging speed makes all the difference. Many "Destination Charging" spots are happy for you to charge while you eat at their restaurant.

The real answer is some of both.....

I wouldn't define a restaurant as a 'destination'. More an 'extended stop'. Yes for those, higher power makes more sense. But looking a little further ahead, I think the only good solution for any charger that isn't meant for overnight charging should be a fast DC charger. 10 or 20 kW doesn't make much difference, both are too slow and there is no point installing 50 kW chargers or more in a car. It's just impractical. It makes a lot more sense to have all chargers DC. Only overnight and all day parking (like at a work place) is fine with keeping L2. For those even 10 kW is more than plenty.

I'm actually a little surprised and disappointed that chargers are still so un-intelligent. Say you have 200 Amp available, you could get two 80 Amp chargers or 4 40 Amp chargers or maybe 3 at 30 Amp. But none is a good solution. Ideally you'd have 6 chargers all communicating and splitting up the power intelligently. If there are only 2 Tesla's with dual chargers, they would both get full 80 Amp each. If there are 6 cars plugged in, and two are old Leafs with 3.3 kW chargers, they would only take up as much as they need and the other cars would each get the rest. And once a car is fully charged, the power automatically increases for all other cars. I have only seen a Dual head charger from Chargepoint that does this between two plugs, but that's it. There is a DIY solution called "hydra' that splits up one plug into two, but again, only limited to two. What we need at destinations is a lot of chargers that all share the max power available intelligently. That's the best to support everyone, and give each one equal chance and use resources to the max.

 

[beeeerock]

If the hotel is willing to install 2x40A EVSEs rather than one 80A, sure. I'll take that. But then the conversation will evolve to "why didn't they install two 80A EVSEs? They could support 4 cars overnight that way!"

Yes, but that assumes that the owners are willing to play musical parking stalls in the night. They might, but 4 of the 40 amp stations would then be even better. The difference is - what is possible? And what is likely to actually occur? I personally believe the midnight swaps won't be popular and may not occur... meaning the second guy will wake up seriously ticked off that his car hasn't even been plugged in yet.

 

[m6bigdog]

Okay, I did what you asked and reread your replies. Here's a recap:

You come here and post speculation as if it's fact regarding the removal of dual chargers from the factory build. When called on it, you say it's not speculation, but comes from inside sources. When asked for sources, you give contradictory information. When called on your contradictory sources, you say that since you live close to the Tesla factory and headquarters you have this information. I reply with my Sara Palin joke. That's the summary of our exchange.

Wait, one more thing, I have a very good life, thank you. But you might want to read this:

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excuse me, I didn't know 'coming here' and posting what I know needed your confirmation, as you are showing a pretty ugly side with "You come here and post speculation as if it's fact."

When the information comes from several knowledgeable Tesla staff I am not speculating. Merely relaying the information.
However you sir are speculating as you pontificate doubt.

So, if you're confused and/or don't believe what I have to post, so be it, as it is useless to continue this exchange.
Enough said!!

 

[jerry33]

I wouldn't define a restaurant as a 'destination'. More an 'extended stop'. Yes for those, higher power makes more sense. But looking a little further ahead, I think the only good solution for any charger that isn't meant for overnight charging should be a fast DC charger. 10 or 20 kW doesn't make much difference, both are too slow and there is no point installing 50 kW chargers or more in a car. It's just impractical. It makes a lot more sense to have all chargers DC. Only overnight and all day parking (like at a work place) is fine with keeping L2. For those even 10 kW is more than plenty.

Well, that's a matter of semantics. To me a destination is where you stop long enough (one to three hours) to get a reasonable amount of charge while doing other activities. That would include sit-down restaurants (as opposed to fast food), theaters, shopping malls, and entertainment complexes. Given the price difference between installing a fast DC charger and a 70 or 80 amp A/C EVSE it seems to me that there will be far less resistance to the A/C EVSE installs. And getting 60-90 miles of range while you do something else for an hour is not insignificant. It's only too slow if you are just waiting for the charging to complete. 30 amps is just a joke unless you are staying for 12-16 hours. 40 amps is fine for overnight stays. As far as the intelligent switching goes, I don't believe there are any in existence, so until there are there's little point in not installing what is available (and sure intelligent switching would be a good idea if it was reliable and didn't triple the cost). Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.

 

[Cottonwood]

Well, that's a matter of semantics. To me a destination is where you stop long enough (one to three hours) to get a reasonable amount of charge while doing other activities. That would include sit-down restaurants (as opposed to fast food), theaters, shopping malls, and entertainment complexes. Given the price difference between installing a fast DC charger and a 70 or 80 amp A/C EVSE it seems to me that there will be far less resistance to the A/C EVSE installs. And getting 60-90 miles of range while you do something else for an hour is not insignificant. It's only too slow if you are just waiting for the charging to complete. 30 amps is just a joke unless you are staying for 12-16 hours. 40 amps is fine for overnight stays. As far as the intelligent switching goes, I don't believe there are any in existence, so until there are there's little point in not installing what is available (and sure intelligent switching would be a good idea if it was reliable and didn't triple the cost). Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.

Hear, hear!

There are also many overnight "destination" locations that have sit-down restaurants as well as hotel rooms. Getting an extra 60-90 miles while having a meal can make a 300 mile trip very reasonable. $2k for 20kW for a HAL2 is much more reasonable and cost effective than $20k for 40kW for a CHAdeMO; that's $0.10 per Watt for L2 vs $0.50 per Watt for L3.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Well, that's a matter of semantics. To me a destination is where you stop long enough (one to three hours) to get a reasonable amount of charge while doing other activities. That would include sit-down restaurants (as opposed to fast food), theaters, shopping malls, and entertainment complexes. Given the price difference between installing a fast DC charger and a 70 or 80 amp A/C EVSE it seems to me that there will be far less resistance to the A/C EVSE installs. And getting 60-90 miles of range while you do something else for an hour is not insignificant. It's only too slow if you are just waiting for the charging to complete. 30 amps is just a joke unless you are staying for 12-16 hours. 40 amps is fine for overnight stays. As far as the intelligent switching goes, I don't believe there are any in existence, so until there are there's little point in not installing what is available (and sure intelligent switching would be a good idea if it was reliable and didn't triple the cost). Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.

(Intelligent switching is already in use in some locations where there are constraints on the supply.)

For the purposes of charging, I think a better definition of a destination is simply "somewhere you go to do an activity". A restaurant is a destination. (A hotel is not a destination. A hotel is home-away-from-home, so you just need the same charging there as at home; except that as Cottonwood points out hotels have restaurants so might need a combination approach).

Whether you want destination charging is not determined by the length of stay, but rather by the need for charge to get home/onwards. How fast you'd want the destination charging to be depends on how much charge you need and the length of stay.

In the case of our trips to eat at restaurants we'd rarely, if ever, need a charge in a Tesla.

I think that the value of destination charging is greater for destinations that draw in people from longer distances, like parks (state, national and amusement), or concert and sports venues.

It's true that faster is better, but faster also requires a more powerful circuit for the EVSE, and more powerful hardware in the car, both of which add to overall cost. The question to ask is how to deliver the best value and from my perspective, the best value would come by taking the cost of the 2nd charger and adding it to the "Supercharger fund", and then having destinations double the number of 40A plugs.

Being conservative if we say $200 for the charger and $125,000 per 2 Supercharger stalls then every 625 cars without the 2nd charger would pay for a pair of Supercharger stalls. Again being conservative and saying 35,000 Teslas per year, not having the 2nd charger would add 56 pairs of stalls per year, and assuming 8 stalls per site, that'd pay for an additional 14 Supercharger sites per year.

Since I don't have access to the statistics on trip length and length of stay at destinations I have no idea whether my approach would save more time. And that's really the problem with this discussion: Tesla's the company with the numbers. It seems like it's striking a balance by having 40A standard, making 80A available and issuing 80A HPWCs in its destination charging program.

 

[gnxs]

You can unplug a J1772 station from the Tesla adapter without a key. The adapter will stay locked in the port.

But I do agree that at a longer duration destination, more lower powered stations are preferable. For short duration stay locations (restaurants etc.) then the faster the better.

That's what I'd love to wake up to after a rainy night at a hotel, finding only my J1772 adapter sitting in the port getting rained on after another user unplugged me. Yikes.

 

[andrewket]

This is why I wish airports would install a long row of 120V outlets (in the USA). If the car is going to be there for days then who cares. It is less efficient, so the total amount of energy required to charge will be more, but this is offset by the savings of installing standard 120v outlets vs J1772s. Maybe 240v outlets wouldn't cost that much over 120v at scale. Not sure. But many more cars could plug in for the same cost.

 

[mknox]

That's what I'd love to wake up to after a rainy night at a hotel, finding only my J1772 adapter sitting in the port getting rained on after another user unplugged me. Yikes.

Then you need the device discussed in this thread a couple of years ago. I helped the developer test a couple of prototypes.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

Is rain on an adapter more of a problem than rain on an adapter and an energized J1772 spigot?