Drive unit problems explanation by Elon

[Gizmotoy]

Even for established makes, I tend to not buy the first year of a completely new generation for the same reason. It's almost inevitable there will be some bugs that will have to be fixed.

It's always a struggle for me. I often see an upcoming car I want, know it's "the one" ahead of time, and wrestle with whether to wait for the kinks to be ironed out. My last 3 cars I haven't been able to wait, and you're right on, all three have had some issues that were later resolved.

In the other 2 cars, though, I typically didn't benefit from the fixes. So far with the Model S, we've mostly received the benefits of the updated designs via TSBs (updated B/D batteries being the major exception, for obvious reasons). That's a huge departure from the established marques, and very commendable, IMO.

Further, the candid and layman's explanation of a technical issue by Elon during an earnings call? That's unheard of.

It's stuff like this that makes me happy to support them.

 

[SeminoleFSU]

except the steering shims, so far anyways, seem to be a 'wear item' or at least they don't last as a 'fix'
I think the little keeper bolts have too low of a torque/ bad bracket design (much more and you torque off bolt heads from experience)

not sure about the drive shims. might be getting some of those soon

this was definitely one of the shims I got and was referring to. Thanks Zex!

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This reply leads me to believe you have no experience actually working on or building machinery, cars, etc, and is completely incorrect.

A shim would be used between two non-moving surfaces. In the case of a differential shim, it would be placed between the outer bearing race and the surface the bearing mounts to. There will be no "consumption" of said shim and the tolerance will not been to be readjusted due to the use of a shim. Shims are not wear items.

Now, in the case of the dash and interior components, their fix has been felt tape which will wear.. and tighter clips will also fatigue. Some fixes will wear out again, only after a longer period than the first part. But in all, most of those things would be considered normal maintenance for an owner who is fanatical about the vehicle being in as "like-new" of condition for as long as possible, on a Model S or any other luxury performance car.

You are correct- I'm in IT for a living... and don't built cars or build machinery. but I still know what a shim is. My point is, the whole car vibrates and has a certain amount of flex to it... so even if it's two "non-moving" surfaces, you'll still get some movement. That movement over time could possibly cause the shim to work it's way out or degrade slightly. Maybe it's a non-issue for most shims depending on where they are (and it sounds like it is,) but in other locations it could be something you have to re-correct.
For example, they put a shim in my steering wheel column to keep it from sounding like the door creek of a haunted house when I switch from an "Exit" profile to my normal driving profile and the sound went away for about 3 weeks, and it's back again worse than before. I now feel compelled to tell new riders in my vehicle, "no, I didn't just fart... that was my steering wheel column."

 

[pgiralt]

Where Tesla stands out to me is their strong commitment to improving build quality and their willingness to retrofit existing cars to new car standards. As they learn, both the new and old cars get better. They can't retrofit everything but there are a lot of improvements getting added on to older cars. That's not something I see most manufacturers doing.

This for me is key. Tesla is going out of their way to go back and improve things on cars they have already shipped. Other than safety recalls, I've never had any car manufacturer proactively fix anything on a car when I've brought it in for service.

 

[Hodginator]

I wonder if the shim will fix the clunk noise I have when changing from acceleration to regen at lower speeds.

 

[dsm363]

My take-away: We didn't know how to build Model S in the beginning and used early owners as guinea pigs. We now have a good quality team in place, but early on our quality sucked even though we were telling everyone that we were building the highest quality car.

Gilbert Passin, the VP in charge of assembly and production, said in early Tesla and factory documentaries that the Model S will be of incredible build quality unlike what the industry has ever seen. Now that Elon has admitted they weren't there in the beginning, how are we to believe anything that we are told today? Clearly, the story can change tomorrow.

Did you really expect perfection out of the gate for a new car from a new company? Even Lexus admits they haven't achieved it since they are still relentlessly pursuing it. I don't think that means they are a bunch of liars and we can not trust them any more. Of course early cars have more problems than later ones. If they didn't then that's a bigger problem since that means QC is slipping.

While QC isn't maybe on par with the big companies their service certainly is.

 

[Johan]

I wonder if the shim will fix the clunk noise I have when changing from acceleration to regen at lower speeds.

Gimme' the shim!

He was saying that just as an example, hold your horses.

 

[apacheguy]

Did you really expect perfection out of the gate for a new car from a new company?

Ok, well I'm not AmpedRealtor, but I get his point. I certainly did not expect perfection out of the gate. But I did trust Tesla to do the right thing and support us through the Sig hardware upgrade promise. If there was a part that offered greater reliability and build quality I certainly expected Tesla to retrofit that part when it became available. Many of their service bulletins have missed this mark though. For instance, on my invoices I have never seen any action taken by service to improve, or even inspect the reliability of my drivetrain.

 

[dsm363]

Ok, well I'm not AmpedRealtor, but I get his point. I certainly did not expect perfection out of the gate. But I did trust Tesla to do the right thing and support us through the Sig hardware upgrade promise. If there was a part that offered greater reliability and build quality I certainly expected Tesla to retrofit that part when it became available. Many of their service bulletins have missed this mark though. For instance, on my invoices I have never seen any action taken by service to improve, or even inspect the reliability of my drivetrain.

Good point. I don't know if there was anything for them to do until now or unless there was a problem. They have the TSBs to apply now. Hopefully they've figured out what the issue was or is.

Tesla has at times done this. Sometimes you have to ask for it though.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

My take-away: We didn't know how to build Model S in the beginning and used early owners as guinea pigs. We now have a good quality team in place, but early on our quality sucked even though we were telling everyone that we were building the highest quality car.

Gilbert Passin, the VP in charge of assembly and production, said in early Tesla and factory documentaries that the Model S will be of incredible build quality unlike what the industry has ever seen. Now that Elon has admitted they weren't there in the beginning, how are we to believe anything that we are told today? Clearly, the story can change tomorrow.

This is not unusual for a completely new vehicle. Have you ever seen the TSB list for the first few years of the Audi R8?

Regarding Passin's comment, a lot of Tesla's exemplary build quality is in the chassis. Unfortunately, that's a part of the car that is under appreciated by owners. A lot of the stuff you can touch and see—what we refer to as fit & finish—is not quite up to European luxury standards. But therein lies the question: do you want the extra effort put into the drive train and cutting edge technology, or do you want it put into trim. Personally, I don't mind plastic used in certain places where MB and Audi use leather, as long as the design kicks butt. Sure, I'd like to see better front seats, but in spite of it the Model S interior is quite beautiful.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I found Elon's response to be a totally honest and straight forward appraisal of the current situation in regards to the question asked. He mentioned a typical situation, and how they arrived at a fix.

He pretty much stated that the current cars are better than the earlier ones, and that he expects further builds will be even higher quality as they have learned from those that have gone before.

Do not believe he ever promised perfect cars, but that quality was deep designed into the cars to reduce issues to a minimum. Observation and adaption will result in a program of continuous improvement.

 

[Norbert]

The downside of innovation is that it occasionally casts an unflattering light on the past...

 

[Todd Burch]

Having 31,000+ miles on an early car, and expecting a new P85 in October, it will be interesting to note the differences in cars about 50,000 VINs apart. I'll be sure to write up my thoughts on this once I have mileage under my belt in the newer car.

 

[dsm363]

Having 31,000+ miles on an early car, and expecting a new P85 in October, it will be interesting to note the differences in cars about 50,000 VINs apart. I'll be sure to write up my thoughts on this once I have mileage under my belt in the newer car.

Thanks. I guess there is a positive out of your whole ordeal after all.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Is "quality" represented by words or experience?

If your answer is "experience", what has been your experience? Would you define your experience as predominantly unlike any you've seen before - or not?

My Model S has had more issues and parts replacements in the first 6 months of ownership than any other vehicle I've ever owned - none of which required any service due to defects. None. From Acura to Volkwagen to Toyota, the Model S takes the crown in terms of service items. This is for a late August 2013 delivery. So I'm speaking from experience as well as Elon's words.

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Consumers need to use their brains, too. The first-year buyers of a product are *always* guinea pigs.

And why would anyone expect a startup company to deliver better build quality than anyone else in the industry straight out of the gate? Tesla is using the same robots, parts and people everyone else is. There's no short cuts to higher build quality. That takes focus, work and time.

Where Tesla stands out to me is their strong commitment to improving build quality and their willingness to retrofit existing cars to new car standards. As they learn, both the new and old cars get better. They can't retrofit everything but there are a lot of improvements getting added on to older cars. That's not something I see most manufacturers doing.

IMO, Tesla's build quality at month 3 was about on par or better than US companies and lagging a bit relative to the best German companies. That's amazing for a startup. Given their commitment to improving my car over time, I'm very happy.

I don't see how anyone can realistically expect Tesla to do anything more.

I went in on a month 3 production car with eyes wide open and I'm very happy with the results. I'd rather have had the car earlier than wait and get a marginally better car later.

And I'm not worried about shims. A shim will outlast the rest of the car if the shim is made out of the right material.

I agree. I bought in 2013 and was prepared to handle problems. They happened and I rolled with it. I love my car and would never buy another non-Tesla. I'm just surprised that Elon said what he did.

 

[WarpedOne]

VIN16k?
There are more cars out there built after than before yours. Your car is already 'old'.

 

[ChadS]

I don't completely buy in to the "older cars had more problems" explanation. I do agree Tesla is looking for ways to improve the cars so later cars have some improvements, and I hope and expect that over the long run things will trend up. But I'm not convinced things were that bad in the first place, and along the way Tesla is also looking for ways to build cars faster and cheaper and with more features - all of which can introduce problems, so there will be some ups and downs. Consumer Reports, for example, said the '12 models were notably more reliable than the '13s. (Both together were 17% more reliable than average).

 

[mhpr262]

At least it doesn't seem to be some really hard to fix "engineered-in" problem, like gearwheels that are to narrow to withstand the torque over the life of the car or something like that.

If I knew what it was (nothing harmful) I guess the cable noise wouldn't even bother me.

 

[Hodginator]

Gimme' the shim!

He was saying that just as an example, hold your horses.

Easy Johan. He stated an actual example and that example may relate to my problem. Nothing wrong with being interested in a resolution is there?

 

[stevezzzz]

Let me throw a data point out there from a very early Sig with about 31,000 miles. I've had my windshield replaced, and the driver's door handle, too. Service proactively replaced my 12V battery and have applied TSBs as they came up; for instance I got the improved front vents and the compressor blanket the last time I had the car in for service, and some front end bits were re-torqued when I complained about a creak coming from behind the dash. That's it. I have never been without the car for more than a day. Usually, the service center comes to me, or brings me a loaner and takes my car and I'm not inconvenienced in the least.

So my VIN is one of the 'good' ones, clearly, but remember: just because all the other 'lucky' owners don't post here doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

I don't completely buy in to the "older cars had more problems" explanation. I do agree Tesla is looking for ways to improve the cars so later cars have some improvements, and I hope and expect that over the long run things will trend up. But I'm not convinced things were that bad in the first place, and along the way Tesla is also looking for ways to build cars faster and cheaper and with more features - all of which can introduce problems, so there will be some ups and downs. Consumer Reports, for example, said the '12 models were notably more reliable than the '13s. (Both together were 17% more reliable than average).

One of the most common problems with cars built before spring 2013 is the door handles. Around that time, Tesla began installing 2nd Generation door handles on all new vehicles. Many older cars have since been upgraded with the new handles without charge. Based on my own experience, I imagine that this issue represents a significant portion of warranty repairs. The new handles offer a big ergonomic improvement, and there are no more false triggers or doors that won't open. The new engineering design is simply better. Incidentally, you can tell whether you have 2nd generation handles by watching the handles when they extend. The newer version will retract slightly after extending.

Another very common problem is the clicking sound that develops in the steering. Usually it's only evident when turning the steering wheel to the extreme left or right when the car is stationary. This problem relates to the way the steering rack mates with the car's frame. It can easily be remedied at a Tesla service center or by a ranger.

The important thing is that Tesla is paying attention, and they are implementing improvements on the assembly line as problems are identified.