Dark morning in America - talk of Model S seems - frivolous

[bonnie]

Just some food for thought ... from someone I never thought I'd agree with re policy. (To be fair, he probably never thought we'd be in agreement on anything, either. )

Dick Cheney Thinks Trump's Muslim Ban Is 'Against Everything We Stand For'

 

[S'toon]

If you are a woman or homosexual or Jew or Christian, exactly what's the reciprocity in those nations?

Or are human rights and diversity something you abhor on religious grounds?

Should we put fliers in our Embassies:

"If you are a misogynist, and want to kill gays, Jews, and Christians, Uncle Sam Needs You! We need to rebuild the Democratic Party in the USA with the correct people. If you believe elections should be abolished, it will put you higher on the list."

So, what you're saying, is because other countries don't honour human rights the way the US does, then the US should adopt the policies of those other countries?

 

[McRat]

Uncalled for potshot. You know he was saying nothing of the kind. And what does that have to do with expecting our country to have a higher moral standard? There is a lot of evil and ignorance in this world, I'd prefer my country not become the shining example. I'm hoping our motto doesn't become 'They discriminate, so therefore we can, too'.

You either endorse human rights, or you just pretend. I chose not to pretend. Yes, I have practicing Muslims, people of color, women, and homosexuals on my staff. But I also allow Christians too.

 

[bonnie]

You either endorse human rights, or just pretend. I chose not to pretend. Yes, I have practicing Muslims, people of color, women, and homosexuals on my staff. But I also allow Christians too.

I honestly don't understand your point here. Are you saying unless a person is just as loud protesting in other countries, one should not speak?

 

[jbcarioca]

Moderator note: I moved this to Off Topic, and moved a few posts out to snippiness that included a personal attack or quoted it.

Usually we only allow politics as it relates to EVs, Tesla, etc. Partisan bickering will not be tolerated. If this thread degenerates into name calling it will all be trashed. You have been warned.

Thanks for letting us all vent a little. I think we all know this thread should probably not be here. Most of the places where it would be appropriate, though, are so overtly partisan that it seems useless to discuss such topics elsewhere.

So, to get back to the topic of BEV and PHEV, some of you may know that Iran has a severe pollution problem in cities. There has been sporadic discussion of potential solutions. Now there seems to be building national consensus (i.e. political will) to adopt some positive steps. If current events do not derail the emerging positive Iranian perspective there could be enormous markets for Tesla Energy products as well as a number of BEV possibilities:
Iran President Test Drives Domestic Electric Car

FWIW: I am biased. I lived in Tehran years ago and have several Iranian friends now. Within the California Iranian community there are quite a few Teslas and there is a growing awareness of the potential.
Sanctions make the domestic market difficult but the strong historical ties to French vehicles have clearly influenced the domestic prototypes.

 

[McRat]

I honestly don't understand your point here. Are you saying unless a person is just as loud protesting in other countries, one should not speak?

I'm saying that if Iran wants to be treated as a civilized country, they need to become a civilized country. Their citizens created the government and laws they have. It is not a dictatorship. The majority made Iran what it is today.

Were you protesting when we restricted visas from the USSR and the People's Republic of China when they were advocating the overthrow of the West by force of arms?

 

[bonnie]

I'm saying that if Iran wants to be treated as a civilized country, they need to become a civilized country. Their citizens created the government and laws they have. It is not a dictatorship. The majority made Iran what it is today.

Were you protesting when we restricted visas from the USSR and the People's Republic of China when they were advocating the overthrow of the West by force of arms?

No, I wasn't. My parents didn't really want a 2 year old out protesting in the streets. Heck, I wasn't even allowed to cross the street by myself then.

I've never subscribed to the 'if you want respect, you have to show respect'. Someone needs to be the example or this all devolves. I am a citizen of the US. I expect this country to act humanely and ethically. I'm not going to excuse bad behavior on our part because 'everyone else is doing it'.

I don't advocate human right abuses in other countries. And yes, I actively do something about that.

The key point here is that we are not restricting because a country has advocated overthrow. We are targeting religions. That's unconstitutional. Both VP Pence and Speaker Ryan have called a muslim ban unconstitutional in the last year - I'm just hoping they'll find their spine again and speak up.

 

[snellenr]

Wait, what? You're saying that someone with a valid green card could be admitted if they get a visa in addition to their green card ... is that also true for residents with green cards who didn't happen to be out of the country? This is gonna be a bigger mess than I originally thought.

In all seriousness, while I disagree with the unconstitutional religious test and the general nature of the order, it wouldn't have taken a whole lot of thought to specify that valid green card holders were not impacted.

It's up to the ICE entry officer -- the green card is required, but they can also look at other factors, including how long the traveler was outside the United States. If long enough, a re-entry permit or returning resident visa may be required.

"A permanent resident (called lawful permanent resident or LPR) or conditional resident (CR) who has remained outside the United States for longer than one year, or beyond the validity period of a Re-entry Permit, will require a new immigrant visa to enter the United States and resume permanent residence."
(Source: Returning Residents)

 

[svp6]

As someone who grew up in a dictatorship I find this deeply disturbing. I am as concerned as everyone else on the issue of terrorism, but to blanket 7 countries with a rigid order seems abandoning some of the principles that made this country the best in the world. And as a former green card holder, I can feel the pain of those who are instantly affected, through no fault of their own. And while this is a car forum, things that may profoundly influence our lives should be allowed. Thanks to the moderators.

 

[BrokerDon]

Well there went my hope of escaping some more political hysteria by checking out this Tesla Motors forum to learn more about our Tesla and help other Tesla owners... which I thought was the purpose of the Tesla Motors Club.

Yeah sure you can try to say Tesla might lose out of some future business in Iran but that's a serious stretch. It could happen... and people could stop shooting each other in Chicago... and the martians could land today. Possible but not probable so not really a good reason to have this toxic diatribe on the Tesla Motors Club forum.

I vote to discontinue this thread ASAP since its 99.9% probable that NOBODY on either side of this argument will change their mind... and a LOT of Tesla owners are going to get upset. These off topic political diatribes simply cause bad feelings... and belong on FakeBook and Fake News, not the Tesla Motors Club forum.

Forum Moderator: How about posting a poll asking TMC members if they want these irrelevant political threads banned? Simple solution...

 

[bonnie]

Well there went my hope of escaping some more political hysteria by checking out this Tesla Motors forum to learn more about our Tesla and help other Tesla owners... which I thought was the purpose of the Tesla Motors Club.

Yeah sure you can try to say Tesla might lose out of some future business in Iran but that's a serious stretch. It could happen... and people could stop shooting each other in Chicago... and the martians could land today. Possible but not probable so not really a good reason to have this toxic diatribe on the Tesla Motors Club forum.

I vote to discontinue this thread ASAP since its 99.9% probable that NOBODY on either side of this argument will change their mind... and a LOT of Tesla owners are going to get upset. These off topic political diatribes simply cause bad feelings... and belong on FakeBook and Fake News, not the Tesla Motors Club forum.

Forum Moderator: How about posting a poll asking TMC members if they want these irrelevant political threads banned? Simple solution...

Or you could just move on and read the threads that interest you. See how easy that would be?

Your other option would be to ask for your money back. Oh wait. You haven't supported this site.

 

[S'toon]

I'm saying that if Iran wants to be treated as a civilized country, they need to become a civilized country. Their citizens created the government and laws they have. It is not a dictatorship. The majority made Iran what it is today.

To a lot of the Western World, "civilized" countries all, the US is not a civilized country. The last time I crossed into the US the border guard asked "Is there any reason why you wouldn't stay in the country illegally?" I responded "The lack of US universal health insurance." He wasn't impressed, but I was allowed through.

 

[McRat]

Many auto enthusiast boards restrict or ban politics and religion from their sites.

Why? Moderators aren't paid, and they are not baby sitters. They are supposed to more like AAA than LAPD. Help with car problems, not stop domestic violence.

But even moderators have political and religious beliefs. There just is no upside to allowing either topic.

 

[McRat]

To a lot of the Western World, "civilized" countries all, the US is not a civilized country. The last time I crossed into the US the border guard asked "Is there any reason why you wouldn't stay in the country illegally?" I responded "The lack of US universal health insurance." He wasn't impressed, but I was allowed through.

How's the human rights thingy going in Canada? Did they finally stop stealing Indigenous people's land? No? Well maybe the 22nd Century will have better luck. It was not until 1960 that a native Canadian could vote.

EDIT - Tidbit, 1991 a Canadian University staffer (Delwin Vriend) was fired specifically for being gay. It was not resolved until 1997.

Was free healthcare a trade for basic human rights?

 

[deonb]

Yes, check the news, your choice of source:
Trump’s order already blocks green card, visa holders at airports

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I got a greencard several years ago I had to prove I gave up my prior residence before I could enter the U.S.

So this is really messed up:

You force people to give up their old home and then you don't allow them to return to their new home.

 

[BrokerDon]

Or you could just move on and read the threads that interest you. See how easy that would be?

Your other option would be to ask for your money back. Oh wait. You haven't supported this site.

Or you could just move your political diatribe to a political forum on FakeBook or any other number of appropriate forums. See how easy that would be? AND less offensive to everybody else who is using the automobile forum to discuss Tesla automobiles?

Wow I wasn't aware that I had to pay then ask for my money back to express my opinion or participate in this forum. Is that a new Tesla Motors Club forum policy or something you just made up? Also like many other TMC members I DO support this forum financially by buying from TMC forum vendors. I also support this forum non-financially by providing relevant Tesla vehicle information to other Tesla users... which I thought was the purpose of this forum. Silly me.

 

[Doug_G]

How's the human rights thingy going in Canada? Did they finally stop stealing Indigenous people's land? No? Well maybe the 22nd Century will have better luck. It was not until 1960 that a native Canadian could vote.

EDIT - Tidbit, 1991 a Canadian University staffer (Delwin Vriend) was fired specifically for being gay. It was not resolved until 1997.

Was free healthcare a trade for basic human rights?

This is exactly the sort of post that will get this thread trashed. Stop now.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Moderator note: I moved this to Off Topic, and moved a few posts out to snippiness that included a personal attack or quoted it.

Usually we only allow politics as it relates to EVs, Tesla, etc. Partisan bickering will not be tolerated. If this thread degenerates into name calling it will all be trashed. You have been warned.

I would argue that it stretches well beyond politics because it's an action the US took. It's only political for those that can't separate it away from partisanship. It's important to see it in how it impacts people around the world.

I do agree with approach you've taken to moderating it though.

 

[bonnie]

Or you could just move your political diatribe to a political forum on FakeBook or any other number of appropriate forums. See how easy that would be? AND less offensive to everybody else who is using the automobile forum to discuss Tesla automobiles?

Wow I wasn't aware that I had to pay then ask for my money back to express my opinion or participate in this forum. Is that a new Tesla Motors Club forum policy or something you just made up? Also like many other TMC members I DO support this forum financially by buying from TMC forum vendors. I also support this forum non-financially by providing relevant Tesla vehicle information to other Tesla users... which I thought was the purpose of this forum. Silly me.

There are tons of off-topic threads in this forum. In the 'Off Topic' section of the forum. So skip this section. Or should we get rid of the humor threads, beekeeping, etc, too? There are a lot of intelligent interesting people on this forum & sometimes the conversation expands beyond what brought us here. To me, that's one of the benefits of this forum.

Just skip what you don't like. This isn't hard. But instead, you pop in and take the time to post about how you don't want any of us to discuss this because you don't like it. I turn the channel if I don't like the show. Merely suggesting you do the same here.

And of course you don't have to pay to be here or express an opinion. That was a tongue-in-cheek about wanting your money back if this site isn't delivering what you've decided is acceptable.

 

[bonnie]

If you have something to say @Macbest, say it. But this seems a little passive aggressive. I'd rather have an adult conversation.