Coronavirus

[bkp_duke]

Some people cannot get vaccinated, and some immunocompromised people do not produce immunity in response to vaccination. Vaccine refusers are endangering people who cannot get vaccinated (due to age or allergies) and they are severely endangering immunocompromised people.

Vaccine refusers are the moral equivalent of drunk drivers. They should be placed in mandatory, enforced quarantine until the pandemic is under control.

I am unaware of anyone that cannot get vaccinated, except the under 12 group (which is incredibly LOW risk).

The immunocompromised are ALL able to get a booster at this time, to further boost their immune response.

Sorry, but these arguments are also hollow and do not justify forcing someone to get vaccinated that doesn't want to.

AGAIN - go back several pages, these arguments have been hashed out in detail. There currently is NOT a good argument, backed up by data, to force vaccinations on people. For the VAST VAST majority of hospitalizations and deaths, it's only the unvaccinated. They made their stupid choices, they can live with the consequences. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to force upon them something they don't want. The "common good" argument here is very hollow, it's their lives they are risking.

 

[JRP3]

There is not a significant number of vaccinated individuals that are dying of COVID.

As you well know death is not the only risk from Covid.

 

[bkp_duke]

Tangentially related . . .

Had to take my oldest (11 yo) for a COVID test this AM because a classmate tested positive. Negative rapid test, asymptomatic, PCR pending. Allowed to return to school immediately under those circumstances with a negative rapid test.

Child asked to get a vaccine as soon 12th birthday hits next month.

 

[bkp_duke]

As you well know death is not the only risk from Covid.

But that is THEIR risk, it's not a significant risk to the rest of the population that has been vaccinated. Long COVID pretty much doesn't exist in the vaccinated population, just the post-COVID population.

 

[JRP3]

But that is THEIR risk, it's not a significant risk to the rest of the population that has been vaccinated.

As you know the unvaccinated are a risk to everyone when they take up medical resources and prevent others from getting treatment for other ailments. Plus the cost of the treatment for the unvaccinated raises costs for all.

 

[bkp_duke]

As you know the unvaccinated are a risk to everyone when they take up medical resources and prevent others from getting treatment for other ailments. Plus the cost of the treatment for the unvaccinated raises costs for all.

But you don't get to make that decision. What about that don't you understand?

By that logic, the overweight are a drain on the medical system and we should force them to workout and watching them doing so, or cut off their healthcare.

This is NOT a fine line, once you allow government to mandate your actions related to healthcare and your own body, it becomes a VERY slippery slope, and quickly.

Nope, I will never support mandatory vaccines (aside from healthcare workers). Nothing you can ever say will ever change my mind on that point. Control over one's body is a fundamental right, and not one that should be infringed upon.

As I've said before, I'm 100% pro-vaccine, but not FORCED vaccination. Especially when this administration doesn't even want to consider that many people are already immune due to having COVID. THAT flies in the face of > 100 years of medical history and practice, plain and simple.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

But you don't get to make that decision. What about that don't you understand?

By that logic, the overweight are a drain on the medical system and we should force them to workout and watching them doing so, or cut off their healthcare.

This is NOT a fine line, once you allow government to mandate your actions related to healthcare and your own body, it becomes a VERY slippery slope, and quickly.

Nope, I will never support mandatory vaccines (aside from healthcare workers). Nothing you can ever say will ever change my mind on that point. Control over one's body is a fundamental right, and not one that should be infringed upon.

As I've said before, I'm 100% pro-vaccine, but not FORCED vaccination. Especially when this administration doesn't even want to consider that many people are already immune due to having COVID. THAT flies in the face of > 100 years of medical history and practice, plain and simple.

What about virus mutations? Aren't the unvaccinated (and yet-to-be-infected), the most likely source for mutations? Isn't that a source of potential threat for everyone else (including the vaccinated)?

Wouldn't polio have been eradicated if it weren't for the anti-vaxxers?

 

[bkp_duke]

What about virus mutations? Aren't the unvaccinated (and yet-to-be-infected), the most likely source for mutations? Isn't that a source of potential threat for everyone else (including the vaccinated)?

That's a theoretical argument thrown around for a year now, that has yet to materialize. We are on the Mu variant and the vaccines still have good coverage for even that.

Also, immunity is NOT binary (yes, no). Even if a new variant comes about with some escape from the vaccine coverage, the vaccinated with be FAR more immune than the unvaccinated.

 

[msm859]

I am unaware of anyone that cannot get vaccinated, except the under 12 group (which is incredibly LOW risk).

The immunocompromised are ALL able to get a booster at this time, to further boost their immune response.

Sorry, but these arguments are also hollow and do not justify forcing someone to get vaccinated that doesn't want to.

AGAIN - go back several pages, these arguments have been hashed out in detail. There currently is NOT a good argument, backed up by data, to force vaccinations on people. For the VAST VAST majority of hospitalizations and deaths, it's only the unvaccinated. They made their stupid choices, they can live with the consequences. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to force upon them something they don't want. The "common good" argument here is very hollow, it's their lives they are risking.

Tell my wife that the common good argument is hollow. She was fully vaccinated and got COVID - lost smell, taste and sick for over a week (She is immune compromised). And when we talk about "mandates" NO one is talking about forcing people to get vaccinated. We are talking about mandates to participate in civilized society. Fly on a plane, ride a train, go to concerts, restaurants, sporting events, concerts, schools etc. AND who should pay for the hospitalization of all these unvaccinated people? Why should they be allowed to burden me financially because - as I believe you would agree - they are stupid. And what about the people who are having their "elective" surgeries delayed because the hospitals are full of unvaccinated COVID patients. When peoples decisions start having negative effects on everyone else, they no longer have the "FREEDOM" to do what they want. That is what it means to live in a civilized society. We have all agreed to this Social Compact by being a citizen of this country. We ALL are suffering by these "stupid people". It is time to stop.

 

[Yuri_G]

But you don't get to make that decision. What about that don't you understand?

By that logic, the overweight are a drain on the medical system and we should force them to workout and watching them doing so, or cut off their healthcare.

This is NOT a fine line, once you allow government to mandate your actions related to healthcare and your own body, it becomes a VERY slippery slope, and quickly.

Nope, I will never support mandatory vaccines (aside from healthcare workers). Nothing you can ever say will ever change my mind on that point. Control over one's body is a fundamental right, and not one that should be infringed upon.

As I've said before, I'm 100% pro-vaccine, but not FORCED vaccination. Especially when this administration doesn't even want to consider that many people are already immune due to having COVID. THAT flies in the face of > 100 years of medical history and practice, plain and simple.

As I'm sure you're well aware each state has mandatory vaccinations for children by law. There is strong precedent for mandatory vaccines for anyone that wants to not be a recluse in this country.

State Vaccine-Specific Requirements

Vaccination state laws and requirements by vaccine for entrance to childcare, school (kindergarten-Grade 12), colleges, and universities.

www.immunize.org

 

[bkp_duke]

As I'm sure you're well aware each state has mandatory vaccinations for children by law. There is strong precedent for mandatory vaccines for anyone that wants to not be a recluse in this country.

State Vaccine-Specific Requirements

Vaccination state laws and requirements by vaccine for entrance to childcare, school (kindergarten-Grade 12), colleges, and universities.

www.immunize.org

I am well aware of that. Are you aware that they are not absolute? If you want to home school your children, in all states that list doesn't apply (even California, which has the strictest of vaccine mandates for kids).

Are you also aware that in most of those states if you can provide documentation of prior infection with one of those diseases, you can be exempted from taking the vaccine?

 

[traxila]

That's what the police are supposed to be for: To arrest and imprison people who pull guns on other people.



Some people cannot get vaccinated, and some immunocompromised people do not produce immunity in response to vaccination. Vaccine refusers are endangering people who cannot get vaccinated (due to age or allergies) and they are severely endangering immunocompromised people.

Vaccine refusers are the moral equivalent of drunk drivers. They should be placed in mandatory, enforced quarantine until the pandemic is under control.

Do you advocate the same remedy for flu vaccine refusers?

 

[Doggydogworld]

Doesn't this summary make the case FOR a vaccination mandate?

I don't much care either way. Just don't lie about it. Especially after demonizing others for not "following the science".

Would mandatory vaccines for Covid survivors provide a little extra immunity? Sure. Mandatory monthly boosters probably would, too. Mandatory flu vaccines would probably save even more lives than vaccines for Covid survivors at this point. Mandatory naltrexone for everyone over 12 could drastically reduce alcohol and drug abuse and the resulting damage to children and spouses of abusers, not to mention society at large. Confiscation of all guns could save ~30k lives per year. And so on.

Covid is dangerous enough to justify extra restrictions. Unvaccinated Covid-naive people are enough of a threat that we can restrict their freedom to fly on planes or work in hospitals, nursing homes, prisons, schools, etc. But if unvaccinated Covid survivors are already less of threat than vaccinated Covid-naive people like me, I think it's difficult to justify restricting them.

 

[madodel]

I don't much care either way. Just don't lie about it. Especially after demonizing others for not "following the science".

Would mandatory vaccines for Covid survivors provide a little extra immunity? Sure. Mandatory monthly boosters probably would, too. Mandatory flu vaccines would probably save even more lives than vaccines for Covid survivors at this point. Mandatory naltrexone for everyone over 12 could drastically reduce alcohol and drug abuse and the resulting damage to children and spouses of abusers, not to mention society at large. Confiscation of all guns could save ~30k lives per year. And so on.

Covid is dangerous enough to justify extra restrictions. Unvaccinated Covid-naive people are enough of a threat that we can restrict their freedom to fly on planes or work in hospitals, nursing homes, prisons, schools, etc. But if unvaccinated Covid survivors are already less of threat than vaccinated Covid-naive people like me, I think it's difficult to justify restricting them.

If we had state issued COVID passes then all of this would be moot. People could show on their phone if they are vaccinated, recovered or tested negative that day. Instead everyone has to carry disparate forms of documentation to try to convince someone that they meet the standard. The problem is we are an idiotocracy that is forced to be incapable of doing something that many other countries have accomplished. The only standard now is the CDC card. And if you lose yours you may be screwed. I was lucky enough that the pharmacy I got vaccinated from was sketchy enough to just write out a new card for me. And my state dept of Health sent me a list of all my vaccinations since 2018, but would anyone accept that?

 

[msm859]

If we had state issued COVID passes then all of this would be moot. People could show on their phone if they are vaccinated, recovered or tested negative that day. Instead everyone has to carry disparate forms of documentation to try to convince someone that they meet the standard. The problem is we are an idiotocracy that is forced to be incapable of doing something that many other countries have accomplished. The only standard now is the CDC card. And if you lose yours you may be screwed. I was lucky enough that the pharmacy I got vaccinated from was sketchy enough to just write out a new card for me. And my state dept of Health sent me a list of all my vaccinations since 2018, but would anyone accept that?

California has issued a "SMART Health Card" that shows proof of vaccinations with a bar code. Very easy to show on your phone and verify.

 

[shinytop]

Many, including me, have posted regarding the high rates in Florida and DeathSantis opposition to anything resembling mitigation. As of this morning on the Washington Post web site Florida is in the bottom 5 of per capita cases.

 

[daniel]

I am unaware of anyone that cannot get vaccinated, except the under 12 group (which is incredibly LOW risk).

The immunocompromised are ALL able to get a booster at this time, to further boost their immune response.

Sorry, but these arguments are also hollow and do not justify forcing someone to get vaccinated that doesn't want to.

AGAIN - go back several pages, these arguments have been hashed out in detail. There currently is NOT a good argument, backed up by data, to force vaccinations on people. For the VAST VAST majority of hospitalizations and deaths, it's only the unvaccinated. They made their stupid choices, they can live with the consequences. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to force upon them something they don't want. The "common good" argument here is very hollow, it's their lives they are risking.

There are people with severe allergies that cannot get vaccinated. There are children too young to be vaccinated. And as has been pointed out many times, while the vaccines are extremely effective, they are not 100%. An unvaccinated person poses the greatest risk to another unvaccinated person, but still poses a real risk even to a vaccinated person. Covid is an extremely serious disease. Not only the risk of death, but also the risk of possibly life-long disability.

Unvaccinated people are a serious threat to the health, welfare, and life of every person around them. Even if the only risk were to children too young to be vaccinated, that would be adequate reason to quarantine every unvaccinated person until the pandemic is under control.

Do you advocate the same remedy for flu vaccine refusers?

That's the False-Equivalency fallacy. Covid is not flu and flu is not covid.

Let me turn the question around: How deadly would a disease have to be before you'd ban unvaccinated people from going out in public spreading it?

 

[bkp_duke]

There are people with severe allergies that cannot get vaccinated. *snip*

EXTREMELY small number. Those that are allergic to J&J can take an mRNA without consequence, and vice versa (the formulations are VASTLY different and allergy to one is not a contraindication to another). There is virtually NO ONE in this country that cannot be vaccinated.

More straw arguments.


EDIT - and your children argument is another straw argument. COVID is about as deadly to kids as seasonal influenza. And that vaccine for kids is optional, not required (not even in vaccine friendly California).

 

[traxila]

That's the False-Equivalency fallacy. Covid is not flu and flu is not covid.

Let me turn the question around: How deadly would a disease have to be before you'd ban unvaccinated people from going out in public spreading it?

Trust me, for the poor souls that have succumbed to influenza over human history there is no false equivalency. A death is a death. There is no fallacy in that.

You turn the question around on me because you realize the shakiness of your position.

You are the one calling for a global unvaccinated person quarantine and mandatory vaccinations for COVID-19. The burden of the calculations you are requesting from me are on you, and you should provide them.

What exactly is the number? What metrics are you using? Is it based on the already dead, or on your projections for the future? Is it based on how contagious it is? Is it based on how deadly it is? How do you measure the death rate? If the death rate lowers and it becomes a long term chronic issue like influenza is that OK? If it dips below your numbers, do you rescind the quarantines and mandatory vaccinations?

30,000 plus people a year dead in the USA has been accepted by society for decades with the flu. Were you agitating for shut downs and and demanding mandatory flu vaccinations to save those 30,000 people a year in an average flu season? Aren't 30,000 people enough for your solution? If yes, then you are consistent and I commend you. If no, then why not?

 

[madodel]

Trust me, for the poor souls that have succumbed to influenza over human history there is no false equivalency. A death is a death. There is no fallacy in that.

You turn the question around on me because you realize the shakiness of your position.

You are the one calling for a global unvaccinated person quarantine and mandatory vaccinations for COVID-19. The burden of the calculations you are requesting from me are on you, and you should provide them.

What exactly is the number? What metrics are you using? Is it based on the already dead, or on your projections for the future? Is it based on how contagious it is? Is it based on how deadly it is? How do you measure the death rate? If the death rate lowers and it becomes a long term chronic issue like influenza is that OK? If it dips below your numbers, do you rescind the quarantines and mandatory vaccinations?

30,000 plus people a year dead in the USA has been accepted by society for decades with the flu. Were you agitating for shut downs and and demanding mandatory flu vaccinations to save those 30,000 people a year in an average flu season? Aren't 30,000 people enough for your solution? If yes, then you are consistent and I commend you. If no, then why not?

Last year for the first time since WWII the US life expectancy dropped by over a year. That's the difference between the Flu and COVID.