Thats two of us. If I can charge in standard mode, and know that I will go 100 miles without worrying about how I drive, will be completely satisfied with the 40 kWh Model S.
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Thats two of us. If I can charge in standard mode, and know that I will go 100 miles without worrying about how I drive, will be completely satisfied with the 40 kWh Model S.
People, forget about 40kWh pack. It will only exist because of Marketing 12.3 Lesson Number 1: you have to offer low end product so you sell more of you main product: 60kWh battery.
There is also Lesson Number 2 that talks about high end product with exactly the same purpose.
40kWh Model S is bordering on useless and senseless vehicle. Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to Tesla Motors.
There is also Lesson Number 2 that talks about high end product with exactly the same purpose.
40kWh Model S is bordering on useless and senseless vehicle. Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to Tesla Motors.
I agree, folks planning on getting the 40 kWh battery pack would be prudent to limit their expectations to these, hopefully conservative values until more authoritative sources are available.
I hope you're right. :wink:
Larry
strider
Active Member
So my real-world range w/ the Roadster in range mode is 195 miles or 79% of the stated range. This is driving 70-75mph with climate control.
So if we take the 40kWh pack range mode rating of 160 miles * .79 we get 126 miles in range mode. Standard mode blocks top and bottom 10% so 160 * .8 = 128 * .79 real world adjustment = 101.12 in standard mode when new. I'm 16 months and 17,000 miles into Roadster ownership and I've lost 4% of my pack capacity. So that would imply the 40kWh Model S would be at 97 real world miles in standard mode after 1.5 years.
So if we take the 40kWh pack range mode rating of 160 miles * .79 we get 126 miles in range mode. Standard mode blocks top and bottom 10% so 160 * .8 = 128 * .79 real world adjustment = 101.12 in standard mode when new. I'm 16 months and 17,000 miles into Roadster ownership and I've lost 4% of my pack capacity. So that would imply the 40kWh Model S would be at 97 real world miles in standard mode after 1.5 years.
That seems in line with what I've been getting although I'm not sure if I would get 195 at 75 mph but I haven't tried it. I was going 60 mph and barely got more than 205 miles but still had about 15 ideal miles left. I don't like to cut it that close.
I think the 70% cut is conservative enough to give you some padding and also take into account degradation of the pack over time. If your daily driving requires you to be in range mode each day with a new battery pack, you'll likely be very unhappy with the 40 kWh pack and should probably get the 60 kWh pack or delay purchase a short time to save up for the battery upgrade. You'll also get the benefit of getting any fixes/improvements they make on the car and the interior when I'd imagine a small revision comes down in 2014 (purely a guess on my part).
What I tell people is get the biggest battery pack you can afford. While you may rarely use it, knowing that it's there and the ability to take longer trips is worth it to some people. If you're someone with a 10 mile commute each way and you'll never take the 40 kWh car on longer trips, it really doesn't make sense to get the bigger pack unless you simply want it.
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This means absolutely nothing. I have yet so see an article about Tesla that has all of the specs right.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
If Model S behaves anything like the Leaf - summer range will be higher than EPA rating and the winter range will be lower. I found the EPA rating on Leaf to be quite good for the average driver (though my average is much higher).
The problem with driving "slowly" is that most of the longer drives will involve freeways. Freeways + Winter means lower than EPA range.
Add battery degradation over time - it can get quite a bit less than the "ideal" range.
Thanks for the information.
Based on the differences in how the batteries are conditioned between the two cars do you think that the Model S's range might not be as sensitive to winter driving?
Larry
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
One option is to take country roads instead of freeways where possible...so that you can drive slower (50-55mph) without feeling like a roadblock on the freeways.
The Volt has a thermally managed battery, and my results are similar to what EVNow reports for the Leaf. That is: less than the 35EPA miles in the winter, and more than 35 miles in the spring, summer, and fall. I drove 58 miles yesterday on one charge, my best to date. Last winter was mild, and my lowest electric range was 26 miles. My all time low was 22 miles in March 2011.
I would expect similar variation from the EPA range rating for a Roadster or Model S.
GSP
I would expect similar variation from the EPA range rating for a Roadster or Model S.
GSP
This is a great option. I enjoy doing this with my Volt. Often this reduces the miles to reach my destination, as well as requiring less Watt-hours per mile - a double benefit. The scenery is usually more interesting as well.
GSP
Just because I haven't seen it stated plainly: the reason the 40kwh battery in a Model S gets 160 miles but the Rav4 is only 100 miles is efficiency. The Model S is lighter and has much less wind resistance than a Rav4, so you get more miles at 55mph. Going 65+ will cut that down a goodly amount, so you might need to figure that in your calculations.
The post that seemed closest to this point, imho, was:
The post that seemed closest to this point, imho, was:
goyogi
Member
That's what I do in my Volt though I am getting the 80kwh battery so I don't ever need to think about routes. I just get in and go! In my Volt while I am not 'tethered' by battery range I do enjoy the pureness of the EV mode and will take the slower route often to eek out as much battery range as possible.
If it may be helpful: my experience in driving a Leaf for a little over 7 months is that range in an EV is primarily dependent upon speed and climate control. Windows up/down, lights on/off, stereo on/off all make a difference but they are generally inconsequential compared to the speed and climate control. This is confirmed for Model S in the range simulator I spent some time with a couple weeks ago at Santana Row. The more and the steeper hills you drive also figure significantly into the equation. You will not recapture going down the extra you use going up. But hills are not represented in the simulator.
The rule of thumb to extend your range is to drive more slowly and use climate control as minimally as possible. I have no doubt we can achieve 160 miles per charge in Model S with 40 kwh battery pack by capping our speed and climate control. It is a trade off. We can maximize our speed and comfort or we can maximize our range. After I got used to my various commutes in the Leaf I found a happy medium for each. I'm sure it will be the same for Model S.
Here are some numbers from the range simulator at Santana Row which demonstrate this point. (My apology if the columns don't line up when this is posted.) All are with windows up, day driving and show miles per charge in range mode on a 40 kwh battery pack:
Outside temp 90 70 50
City driving, CC off 182 185 183
City driving, CC on 126(!) 171 158
Hwy 55 mph, CC off 172 170 165
Hwy 55 mph, CC on 149 165 157
Hwy 60 mph, CC off 157 155 151
Hwy 60 mph, CC on 139 151 145
Hwy 65 mph, CC off 144 141 138
Hwy 65 mph, CC on 129 139 133
Multiply these figures by 80% for standard mode. But if we are about out of charge in Model S in standard mode we can override en route and go into range mode to pick up the bottom 10% so there is a nice cushion if needed in a pinch.
The big unknown in my mind is battery degradation over time. People are guessing 70% of maximum capacity after 8 years but that is going to depend on driving/charging patterns and possibly temperatures. With intelligent driving/charging for those 8 years I'm assuming we'll still get 112 miles per charge in range mode and 90 miles in standard mode (with an extra 11 mile buffer) with a 40 kwh battery pack if we can cap our speed and climate control. Time will tell.
The rule of thumb to extend your range is to drive more slowly and use climate control as minimally as possible. I have no doubt we can achieve 160 miles per charge in Model S with 40 kwh battery pack by capping our speed and climate control. It is a trade off. We can maximize our speed and comfort or we can maximize our range. After I got used to my various commutes in the Leaf I found a happy medium for each. I'm sure it will be the same for Model S.
Here are some numbers from the range simulator at Santana Row which demonstrate this point. (My apology if the columns don't line up when this is posted.) All are with windows up, day driving and show miles per charge in range mode on a 40 kwh battery pack:
Outside temp 90 70 50
City driving, CC off 182 185 183
City driving, CC on 126(!) 171 158
Hwy 55 mph, CC off 172 170 165
Hwy 55 mph, CC on 149 165 157
Hwy 60 mph, CC off 157 155 151
Hwy 60 mph, CC on 139 151 145
Hwy 65 mph, CC off 144 141 138
Hwy 65 mph, CC on 129 139 133
Multiply these figures by 80% for standard mode. But if we are about out of charge in Model S in standard mode we can override en route and go into range mode to pick up the bottom 10% so there is a nice cushion if needed in a pinch.
The big unknown in my mind is battery degradation over time. People are guessing 70% of maximum capacity after 8 years but that is going to depend on driving/charging patterns and possibly temperatures. With intelligent driving/charging for those 8 years I'm assuming we'll still get 112 miles per charge in range mode and 90 miles in standard mode (with an extra 11 mile buffer) with a 40 kwh battery pack if we can cap our speed and climate control. Time will tell.
I agree. However ambient temperature also has a very large effect, even when not using any climate control. Temperature has the biggest effect on range in my experience. Inclement weather also has a large effect on range. This can be annoying when I have to drive through a rainstorm, and my range turns out much less than I planned.
Even though we can't control the weather, we can (sort of) predict it and plan accordingly. Also, when running low on range, you can always slow down, take a shorter route, and "drive ahead" to avoid regen and only use the brakes in an emergency. Also, turn off the HVAC, including the (noisy, inefficient, and power sucking) fan, and instead crack the driver and rear passenger windows about 1-2 cm. all these options are available when pushing to your range limit. They are frequently used with a 16 kWh battery, and less frequently (but still occasionally) with an 85 kWh battery I am sure.
GSP
roblab
Active Member
I was under the impression that with Tesla's Climate Controlled Battery Pack, outside temps were not as much a concern, tho I don't know.
Also, these are only *controllable* range extenders. If you live or travel in the mountains, you find out that you lose 10 - 15 miles of charge per every 1000 feet of climbing, and only get a third of that back with regen on the way back down. So going over the mountains from, let's say, Sacramento to Reno, about 130 miles, would take you well over 200 miles range due to the 6000+ foot pass at Boreal, and the over 4000' elevation of Reno above Sacto.
So, if you have a choice of routes between cities, your only choice for range extension is around the mountain instead of over, depending on the extra distance. Makes a big difference while traveling in the mountains.
I agree. This is my experience also. I should have been more explicit to say that speed and climate control are the primary "controllable" range determinants when you cannot circumvent hills or mountains.
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