Charging Concerns; Challenging Townhome Situation

[Daniel in SD]

You really want 240V charging if you can get it. Electricity isn't cheap in CA and 120V is significantly less efficient. Just switch each breaker off one at a time and see which outlets/lights/garage door opener dies.

 

[AdamMacDon]

One good thing is that I have a Supercharger very close to me...maybe 4 miles or so? There are also EVGo chargers there for DC3 fast-charging which I used on-occasion with the LEAF S.

Oh right you're in Cali, so I wouldn't even worry about it. I swear last time I was in CA there were more DC fast chargers than gas pumps. You'll for sure have no trouble with 110V only and the occasional SC trip. Unlike here in some Canadian provinces where there aren't ANY DC fast charge options.

 

[Feathermerchan]

So with one of these, you can see if power is on or not:
https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instr...argid=aud-801381245258:pla-434574060698&psc=1

They are also available at Home Depot, etc. It also tells if your outlet is wired properly.
Then switch breakers off one at a time and see if the garage has two circuits (some outlets connected to one breaker, some outlets connected to a second breaker.)

What quits working when you switch off the red pair of breakers? Water heater? House heat? Or is that all gas?
Hot tub?

 

[Daniel in SD]

What quits working when you switch off the red pair of breakers? Water heater? House heat? Or is that all gas?
Hot tub?

Looking more carefully at the writing it looks like the upper one is the garbage disposal (so it's just a regular garbage disposal, not a 240V model) and the lower one is the dishwasher but for some reason they are on a double pole breaker

 

[Feathermerchan]

I don't think I've ever heard of a 240V dishwasher.

 

[Spacep0d]

Another point is that a 120v line can easily be run at 240v without changing the wire itself. Thus, a 120v NEMA 5-15 could become a 240v NEMA 6-15; and a 120v NEMA 5-20 (as described by arch4life) could become a 240v NEMA 6-20. This upgrade would require swapping out the 120v breaker for a 240v breaker and upgrading the plug in the garage. (If you have no free breaker slots, you might be able to combine some 120v circuits using half-sized 120v breakers. I'm not sure what modern code says about such breakers, though.) The result will be at least a doubling in the charge rate, in miles of range per hour.

That said, it seems to me that there are basically two problems you're facing:

• Wiring to the garage -- Physically running a new line to the garage sounds difficult. Converting an existing 120v line can get around this limit, if you're willing to accept the limits of a 15A (or maybe a 20A) 240v circuit; however, if there's only one circuit to the garage, this would rob you of your 120v outlets there, which may be a deal-breaker. In that case, you might want to look into how the existing wiring is routed. If it goes through some sort of conduit pipe, maybe another wire could be added without too much difficulty.
  
• The house's main-panel capacity -- Your house's dinky 60A main breaker might not be able to handle more draw, but you'll need a load analysis to determine this with certainty. If you'd need to upgrade that panel, and probably the service line from the utility poles, then that will cost a fair amount ($2,000, at least, from memory).

Ultimately, installing a Level 2 charging solution in your garage is possible; the only question is how much it will cost. In a worst-case scenario, the whole house could be leveled and re-built; but of course most people wouldn't consider that solution because it'd be preposterously expensive and inconvenient. Chances are something less radical is possible, but it might cost more than you're willing to spend.

One more very minor point: Townhomes often provide 208V, rather than 240V, service. This won't really change things in terms of how you wire stuff, AFAIK, but it means you won't get quite as much boost in charging speed by going from 120V to 208V as you'd get going from 120V to 240V.

Great post. All of this gives me ideas how to steer the electrician. I don't even mind spending 2k for a robust solution that gives me fast charging, as long as I have a regular 120v outlet for power tools and a way to either charge the Tesla or any EV my g/f might acquire in the future.

 

[Spacep0d]

In order for a Quick 220 to be effective in your garage, you need to have two circuits in the garage that are fed from opposite sides of the bus in the panel. I don't see labels on your panel that would indicate that you have two circuits going to the garage...

I agree with others that your lower mileage driven means that you can probably get by with a 120 volt trickle charging solution. But what I would also recommend to make sure that you end up with a safe charging solution is to replace the existing 120v receptacle that you're going to plug into with a new commercial grade outlet and make sure that the wires are connected to it with screw terminals and not the popular backstab spring connectors (which can get weak and heat up over time, especially at fully rated current charging your car for many hours a day). Then you should be good to go....

I'll definitely have this verified when I have the place assessed again in-person. Thanks!

 

[Daniel in SD]

I don't think I've ever heard of a 240V dishwasher.

There's a 20A 120V circuit for the dishwasher and a 20A 120V circuit for the garbage disposal. For some reason they used a double pole breaker. Not clear if you can remove the plastic bridge bar between them and it was just left on by mistake.
It does appear that tandem breakers are allowed in all positions on this panel so an extra 240V circuit could be added by replacing the 20A double pole breaker with a quad breaker (Eaton - Quad Breakers - Circuit Breakers - The Home Depot). No idea if that would be code compliant due to load calculation.

 

[arnolddeleon]

There's a 20A 120V circuit for the dishwasher and a 20A 120V circuit for the garbage disposal. For some reason they used a double pole breaker. Not clear if you can remove the plastic bridge bar between them and it was just left on by mistake.
It does appear that tandem breakers are allowed in all positions on this panel so an extra 240V circuit could be added by replacing the 20A double pole breaker with a quad breaker (Eaton - Quad Breakers - Circuit Breakers - The Home Depot). No idea if that would be code compliant due to load calculation.

I'm guessing it was done with 12/3 so the circuits are sharing a neutral, that's why the breakers are tied together. The circuits likely land in one outlet under the sink and that outlet is split.

 

[Spacep0d]

Update: It looks like I *might* have a dedicated 15a line in the garage, and I could have my garbage disposal removed if-needed to create extra headroom. I'll have that verified with a pro soon.

Could I use a 15a Level 2 EVSE and have the 120v line converted to 220 volt? I've noticed that when trickle charging, this line is pretty robust for a trickle charger, but maybe it'll support this Clipper Creek EVSE?

12A Level 2 EVSE LCS-15 | ClipperCreek

I'll have an electrician out to see it post-haste. Opinions welcome in the meantime. Thanks!

 

[ralph142]

Update: It looks like I *might* have a dedicated 15a line in the garage, and I could have my garbage disposal removed if-needed to create extra headroom. I'll have that verified with a pro soon.

Could I use a 15a Level 2 EVSE and have the 120v line converted to 220 volt? I've noticed that when trickle charging, this line is pretty robust for a trickle charger, but maybe it'll support this Clipper Creek EVSE?

12A Level 2 EVSE LCS-15 | ClipperCreek

I'll have an electrician out to see it post-haste. Opinions welcome in the meantime. Thanks!

Why do you want a ~$400 evse, when even a hospital grade 6-20 or 6-15 outlet ($15) would do the job.

 

[Spacep0d]

Why do you want a ~$400 evse, when even a hospital grade 6-20 or 6-15 outlet ($15) would do the job.

Is that outlet something the Tesla connector can connect to and give me L2 charging? Maybe I don't need an EVSE. Still trying to work it all out.

 

[pl8dlikafiddle]

Is that outlet something the Tesla connector can connect to and give me L2 charging? Maybe I don't need an EVSE. Still trying to work it all out.

Absolutely. Here’s the link:Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

You’d be interested in the NEMA 6-15 adapter for the mobile charging cable that comes with the car.

 

[Spacep0d]

Absolutely. Here’s the link:Gen 2 NEMA Adapters

You’d be interested in the NEMA 6-15 adapter for the mobile charging cable that comes with the car.

Nice! Yes this is a way better solution. Thanks! I'll see about converting this outlet to a 6-15 or a 6-20 if it'll work. If I can bypass the disposal then that should free up some amps. For a while my disposal was broken and I didn't even miss it.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Aha! You may have saved me some hassle. Well, I will certainly make sure the recepcle I use is thusly reinforced. I don't mind long charge times but I want to make it as robust and safe as possible. Thanks!

Update: It looks like I *might* have a dedicated 15a line in the garage, and I could have my garbage disposal removed if-needed to create extra headroom. I'll have that verified with a pro soon.

Could I use a 15a Level 2 EVSE and have the 120v line converted to 220 volt? I've noticed that when trickle charging, this line is pretty robust for a trickle charger, but maybe it'll support this Clipper Creek EVSE?

12A Level 2 EVSE LCS-15 | ClipperCreek

I'll have an electrician out to see it post-haste. Opinions welcome in the meantime. Thanks!

I and my neighbour have that exact clipper creek unit. I hard wired mine. He put his on a receptacle. 12 amps at 240 volts. Better than 120 volts. More than double when efficiencies are considered.

 

[ewoodrick]

You need a loooonnnngggg set of vom leads or an extension cord. Check the hot of one to the hot of the other and it should be 240 volts. Yiu’ll Also have to check that neither are on GFCI’s but more than likely they won’t if built that long ago.

Or plug a light into each outlet, throw the breaker and see if they go out at the same time.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm guessing it was done with 12/3 so the circuits are sharing a neutral, that's why the breakers are tied together. The circuits likely land in one outlet under the sink and that outlet is split.

Makes sense. Learn something new every day! Thanks.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Or plug a light into each outlet, throw the breaker and see if they go out at the same time.

Well if you are just going to make *sugar* easy like that...

Seriously, good idea

 

[eprosenx]

Here we go; pics of panel and other details;

Thanks for these. Wow. That is an unbelievably tiny electrical service.

Can you post pictures of a more zoomed out view of the meter base outside? I am assuming that there is a main disconnect breaker at this meter base location. Perhaps under a plastic flap? I want to see what size breaker it is. (Actually it may be directly under the meter cut off in the photo)

While the labeling on the breaker box is horrible, I can understand most all of it I think.

I am guessing the 240v (double wide) 30a breaker is Air Conditioning? (can you confirm you have AC?)

This is crazy. I can’t believe this got signed off by an inspector (just totally full on day one).

I can tell you right now that you have only 15a 120v circuits running to the garage. I can identify what every single 20a 120v circuit is for (garbage disposal, dishwasher, kitchen, kitchen, microwave, clothes washer). So that means the garage receptacles must only be on 15a circuits.

Now we may need to get into the real details. If there is a way to safely get pictures, I would like to see the inside of your breaker panel. Specifically, we need to know what size and type of wire (copper or aluminum) feeds it from the outside meter base. (if you get really lucky the wire installed may already support more than the size of the main breaker installed, but it is unlikely)

This is a really hard deal, but it is possible that you could put “tandem” breakers in the top left and right breaker positions which would give you space for another 240v circuit each. You could potential do a 15a or 20a 240v dedicated circuit for charging the car which would be several times better than basic 120v 15a on a circuit shared with who-knows-what. (but I am sure you are probably already at the edge of your load calculations)

Also, how far is it from the main outside power meter to your main electrical box? Perhaps running a new larger feeder would be an option OR maybe you could make your existing panel a sub-panel and run an EV charging circuit directly off a new main panel? How close is the meter base to the garage?

 

[eprosenx]

Thanks for these. Wow. That is an unbelievably tiny electrical service.

Can you post pictures of a more zoomed out view of the meter base outside? I am assuming that there is a main disconnect breaker at this meter base location. Perhaps under a plastic flap? I want to see what size breaker it is. (Actually it may be directly under the meter cut off in the photo)

While the labeling on the breaker box is horrible, I can understand most all of it I think.

I am guessing the 240v (double wide) 30a breaker is Air Conditioning? (can you confirm you have AC?)

This is crazy. I can’t believe this got signed off by an inspector (just totally full on day one).

I can tell you right now that you have only 15a 120v circuits running to the garage. I can identify what every single 20a 120v circuit is for (garbage disposal, dishwasher, kitchen, kitchen, microwave, clothes washer). So that means the garage receptacles must only be on 15a circuits.

Now we may need to get into the real details. If there is a way to safely get pictures, I would like to see the inside of your breaker panel. Specifically, we need to know what size and type of wire (copper or aluminum) feeds it from the outside meter base. (if you get really lucky the wire installed may already support more than the size of the main breaker installed, but it is unlikely)

This is a really hard deal, but it is possible that you could put “tandem” breakers in the top left and right breaker positions which would give you space for another 240v circuit each. You could potential do a 15a or 20a 240v dedicated circuit for charging the car which would be several times better than basic 120v 15a on a circuit shared with who-knows-what. (but I am sure you are probably already at the edge of your load calculations)

Also, how far is it from the main outside power meter to your main electrical box? Perhaps running a new larger feeder would be an option OR maybe you could make your existing panel a sub-panel and run an EV charging circuit directly off a new main panel? How close is the meter base to the garage?

Also, do you have an “air handler” (furnace) for that central AC? What provides heat? Natural gas? (I normally would expect a dedicated 120v breaker for the air handler)

Perhaps you have a mini-split unit that only requires the single 240v breaker? And is it a heat pump so no other heat required?

(I am wondering if one of the circuits labeled “conv” is actually for an air handler?)

Do you have a garage door opener? What circuit is it on? (If the same as the garage outlets then you certainly can’t convert to 240v, also, code does not look kindly on such conversions since you would lose the mandated 120v convenience receptacles)

Also, ditching the garbage disposal woul not actually save you any capacity since it hardly ever runs and it also is generally mandated in order to have a dishwasher I think)