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TonyWilliams
Active Member
Well, I've personally had discussions with "really smart guys" with beau coup experience with this stuff, and they all assure me that the technical challenges are straight forward. The problem for either myself, or anybody else, to pursue this is that IF Tesla builds one and it sells for $299, there is just NO WAY that some start up could compete.
I would suggest that a pool of folks be organized to "pledge" their money for such a project. I'd recommend not going forth without $250k in pledges, which means "significant" amounts from each person for the projected extremely low volume of folks who would actually participate.
I can also foresee one potentially interesting issue that could be quite expensive, and that is getting the Tesla pins. If a source can't be found, this pledge based company would spend a butt load building their own.
UL listing or other laboratory is almost required. This is real power that can burn down houses and kill people if things go wrong (and even if they go right, and the fingers are pointed the wrong way). That's pricey.
It would still be one year away, minimum. Still interested?
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
I agree with this paragraph 100%. After that, I've already spelled out a lot of my take on the fine points, so I won't go over those again.
At a high level, I disagree not because I have any problem with your logic; but because I disagree with the assumptions of what Tesla is trying to do. (And with what interests site hosts and entities installing DC chargers have).
Tesla is only putting in Superchargers to help sell cars. Superchargers are a marketing expense, not a goal. Other DC chargers are not only free to Tesla, but they help sell Teslas too - if they can be used. Even if Tesla wanted to slow down Nissan (they don't) Tesla refusing to sell their CHAdeMO adapter here is not going to slow down Leaf sales, or Nissan's CHAdeMO installations.
It also breaks a promise that Tesla has made to several buyers that the Model S "will be as omnivorous as possible" when it comes to charging. The reason they made that promise is that they know it is exactly what owners want.
BTW, there is one possibility that may have both of us being half-right. Tesla may be delaying a CHAdeMO adapter temporarily in hopes that that will help ensure that the new CA DC buildout consists of both CHAdeMO and SAE connectors, so that at least CA residents (which may be the only place that gets SAE chargers) can use SAE adapters instead of CHAdeMO adapters. If that's the case, then once the CA buildout decisions are all made, then Tesla would announce the CHAdeMO adapter for the US. I'm not sure exactly where the CA buildout plans are, or if Tesla not saying their cars can use CHAdeMO would really help or not. But it's a theory.
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CHAdeMO is more than first. If you ignore the Tesla supercharger as a closed proprietary system - which it is - then CHAdeMO is alone.
SAE DC is paper only. There are no cars. No other company can really be considered as "seriously supporting" until they sell cars. All else is smoke and mirrors.
Not true at all. The SAE J1772 Combo system uses separate pins for DC and AC, whereas Tesla's shares DC and AC. The signalling and protocol are also totally different as well.
The Model S connector shares signalling with J1772, but the physical connector is quite different. The current-carrying pins on the Model S connector are massive, many times the amperage, and are of a coaxial design.
Way off again. Connector materials alone when we get up into the hundreds of amps range goes WAY up. Then there is a need for a protocol codec, as the 2 protocols are very different.
CHAdeMO has worked hard to get their system ratified as an international standard, and it is in the final stages of becoming a global standard. IEC 62196-3 is expected to ratify this coming December containing CHAdeMO.
You will not need to pay anyone a license to use CHAdeMO once it becomes a standard.
-Phil
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I agree!
I don't see Tesla selling an adapter for $299. A silly Roadster to Model S adapter is $650, and that's just a couple of connectors and some wire. I don't see them selling a CHAdeMO adapter for less than $1500, and it may very well be over 2 kilobucks if they ever even bother.
Hardware wise, the biggest expense is the CHAdeMO inlet, unless you're willing to try to manufacture one yourself, it's a very pricey bit. The Model S connector isn't peanuts either, the cheapest I've seen it can be had for is $650.
I can most definitely build the entire electronics package for less than any one connector, so right now the biggest stumbling block is that exorbitant connector cost. In order to even consider this project, I'd need to have a minimum of 20 people willing to pay at least $1k each over the connector costs. If someone can put that together and secure a source for the connectors, I can build them.
Another possibility is to forego the Model-S connector and just install it into the car, while cheaper, I don't see many people wanting to take this plunge.
-Phil
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
SAE Combo can also use AC pins for DC just like Tesla's TS2 connector. It can provide up to 80A in DC Level 1 mode, which can provide 33kW of power at the 410V charging voltage of the Model S:
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf
Such an adapter will cost exactly the same as the current Model S adapter. The only reason why the current J1772 adapter won't work is the middle bottom slot would need to be cut open since the Combo connector has plastic going through that part (see picture).
A recent presentation by the SAE confirms a Supercharger to SAE DC Level 1 adapter can be made for less than $100! This news may deserve its own thread, but I have debated posting it since it's not official yet. But I might just start such a thread dedicated to the SAE DC adapter for Model S, since I posted it here anyways.
http://www.sae.org/events/gim/presentations/2013/pev_charging_standards_status.pdf
Yes, I know the physical connector is quite different, but it's similar enough that a pin-to-pin adapter can be made (even in Level 2 DC mode when it uses the DC pins, the J1772 DC spec does not use the two AC pins). All that may be necessary is a firmware update on the Model S side to add the new protocol. JB in a recent interview in SAE says the new communication protocol for the Combo plug is easy to adapt to and that they are already compliant:
http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11923
The current power levels being used are also quite similar (90kW).
As you are well aware, a simple pin-to-pin adapter is impossible for CHAdeMO mainly because of the CAN Bus. There necessarily has to be extra electronics in the between. The only place where a CHAdeMO adapter might save money is the lower 50kW power level will reduce the wiring and pin cost (although I suspect you can also make a J1772 DC connector rated only for 50kW for cheaper).
Wrong. A standard does not automatically indemnify you from licensing fees. Again, for an example from the cell phone world, look at the 3G standard. Only if TEPCO chooses not to charge licensing fees (which they very well might) will that happen.
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highfalutintodd
Member
Okay, this is starting to seem like simple supply and demand - there are many of us out here clamoring for a product and here's an intelligent guy who can build what we want.
Which one of you entrepreneurial souls out there wants to get with Phil and set up a kickstarter project to get this thing off the ground? I'll put my money where my mouth is and contribute today, and I'll bet many others on this board would as well.
SuperCoug
Model S Res #7734
Let's be clear: They are NOT mutually exclusive. It's a heck of a lot easier/cheaper for Tesla to sell a CHAdeMO adapter in the US that already needs to be developed for Japan than it is to roll out more SuperChargers.
It's interesting that...
1. Tesla believes strongly enough in the value of people's time that they put it in the calculator and make reference to it in two media announcements related to financing.
2. Tesla doesn't believe strongly enough in the value of people's time to speak to the demand of Chademo adapters. Is time spent charging at 30A within 10 feet of a Chademo adapter not a waste of owner time? It's certainly a waste of this owner's time.
1. Tesla believes strongly enough in the value of people's time that they put it in the calculator and make reference to it in two media announcements related to financing.
2. Tesla doesn't believe strongly enough in the value of people's time to speak to the demand of Chademo adapters. Is time spent charging at 30A within 10 feet of a Chademo adapter not a waste of owner time? It's certainly a waste of this owner's time.
The words that Tesla needs to hear are: "I was going to buy a Model S but then decided not to because the car can not use the CHAdeMO fast chargers in my area."
Although: "I have stopped recommending to my friends that they buy a Model S until they can use the CHAdeMO fast chargers in our area." might also work.
I have helped sell a few cars, I am sure a lot of you have too.
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I'm not sure on what basis you say the signaling and protocol are totally different, since that directly contradicts Tesla's statements. In fact, this is from a JB Straubel interview from a month ago:
What about the communication protocol of the Combo Connector? It’s considered essential for V2G.
That’s fine. We’re definitely commonizing with all of that. The only thing that’s up for debate in all of these standards is the physical geometries of the pins and sockets. Everything else is pretty easy to adapt to. The communication standards are pretty universal. We’re 100% compliant with all the J1772 communication levels, signaling, voltage, everything.
And this is a statement from the same interview:
"Japan’s off in a different world with the CHAdeMo standard."
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Well, we can dream. But I suggest you not hold your breath waiting for Inslee to actually do something. I'm not anti-Inslee but to date he hasn't exactly shown initiative on anything, other than gauzy, feel good speeches.
Personally, I think we need to focus on getting Tesla to help out here. Highest per capita ownership of Ss and still no superchargers.
Why do you think there would be such an adapter and what would the two adapters have to do with each other?
By that logic the J1772 adapter works with both vehicles so they both already support Supercharger and Chademo access. /confused
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Silly. The car controls the charge rate, so even if it was plugged into a 90kW - 120kW Tesla DC charger (or Frankenplug), it will still draw 48kW; 388-394 volts at 120 amps until 50% SOC, then ramp down the amps to 100%
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Lots of great ideas. I don't think getting the money together will be a problem at all. Buying the CHAdeMO receptacle is a known quantity and price. I'm confident you will do a bang up job with the protocol interface. I have a Model S plug from my Model S UMC that you're welcome to abuse.
I don't know how those are assembled, but if the pins are crimped (and not soldered), they aren't reusable. Plus, I suspect a bit more wire is needed for 120 amps from a CHAdeMO. How do you envision fixing the pin situation in the Model S plug?
If what I was told at the factory is correct, they're also basically hand made by engineering. The maximum potential market for Roadster to Model S adapters is incredibly small. If CHAdeMO becomes a popular standard it might be worth putting the time and energy into production, which could bring the price down significantly.
That's a lot of "if", though, so I wouldn't count on it. There's a non-zero possibility that the planned solution involves a different charge port - or even a different integrated charger - for relevant markets. That sounds like a much more expensive proposition.
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