No he didn't. He said the Model S would be able to use CHAdeMO. So it might just as well be a separate CHAdeMO port instead of an unwieldy adapter.
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No he didn't. He said the Model S would be able to use CHAdeMO. So it might just as well be a separate CHAdeMO port instead of an unwieldy adapter.
It's definitely very frustrating that ready-to-pay customers of such an adapter in the U.S. are being told to "pray that Japan motivates us to make one."
Perhaps we should start a reservation list for the adapter on this forum. And then work with a 3rd party to deliver them since apparently Tesla doesn't seem interested.
deonb
Active Member
Thank you! Exactly!
Nobody here specifically wants CHAdeMO. We don't believe it's any better. We don't have charging equipment lying around that we'd like to re-use. It's slower and costlier than SuperChargers. And we would have to compete with Leafs for spaces. The only reason there is even a request for CHAdeMO is because of this current situation:
a) There are some CHAdeMO DC charge station around us - AND - there is NOT a SuperCharger at those same locations.
b) We want DC charging now!
c) It is cheaper for Tesla to just give us a CHAdeMO adapter than it is to install a SuperCharger - so we will likely be able to use a DC charger sooner with CHAdeMO than if we have to wait for a SuperCharger.
d) Hence - let's demand CHAdeMO!
However, I can imagine this from Tesla's perspective (I've mentioned this before - I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I'm not convinced that this isn't Tesla's reasoning.):
a) Apart from the West Coast green highway, there are exactly 7 other geographic areas on the mainland U.S. and Canada that is covered by CHAdeMO, and 160 overall CHAdeMO outlets.
http://www.chademo.com/kml/CHAdeMO_map_in_130321.kml - Mapy Google
b) Tesla can cover the same areas with about 20 to 25 supercharger locations, for a cost of about $5 million.
c) Tesla customers would be happier with superchargers than with CHAdeMO.
d) Tesla would be happier with a charging infrastructure that only their customers can use.
If Tesla creates a CHAdeMO adapter now, it instantly adds 30% future market share to CHAdeMO's potential customer base, giving a lot more legitimacy to U.S. CHAdeMO. And once available, you can't take that away again. With the way other EV companies are going right now, it's easy to imagine Tesla grabbing 50% of U.S. EV market share within 5 years before real competitors wake up and the number goes back down again. Tesla's moves now are extremely consequential to influencing the market over the next few years. Executed correctly, Tesla can create a private feedback loop that no other vendor can touch.
Once you have a CHAdeMO adapter for Tesla, they give up that advantage. It suddenly starts making sense for more and more private installations of CHAdeMO. For that matter, there are enough people owning Tesla's that have the private funds available to pool together to install CHAdeMO outlets on various less-used highways. That would trigger an unwanted public feedback loop. As much as it is in Tesla's short-term benefit to have a great DC charging infrastructure, if is NOT in their long-term interest to have a DC infrastructure that all their competitors can also use. Especially because CHAdeMO works so much better with a competitors vehicle than with a Tesla. Once you have ubiquitous CHAdeMO, Tesla's advantage of being the only road-trip capable EV goes bye-bye.
As a shareholder, given a choice between:
a) Tesla doing a $100 million capital raise now to install 500 supercharger throughout the world (200 in the U.S).
b) Tesla actively participating in furthering a DC charging standard that is virtually free for Tesla, but serves in benefiting their competitors more than them.
I would chose (a). Go ahead - dilute my shares by $1. (Actually... go create a short squeeze to get those suckers out of the market, then go and dilute my shares by 50c.)
More importantly, I think Elon and the board would chose (a). Which is why I don't think we'll see a CHAdeMO adapter until Tesla's hand is forced on this one. If there is a large CHAdeMO rollout that makes it impossible or impractical to cover with SuperChargers then yes, absolutely, embrace that sucker. But while we're talking about something that can be covered with $5 million worth of SuperChargers... not so much.
What puzzles me is... this is easy and obvious. Why isn't this done yet? Or... is it? Does this thread become obsolete after the 4th chapter of the trilogy?
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mknox
Well-Known Member
deonb makes a good argument but I can't help wondering if going down the proprietary connector route is the best course of action. Imagine if you had to take your ICE to a gas station that only supported your brand of car. I'm not saying CHAdeMO is it, but it would be nice if EV drivers of any make/model didn't have to think about these types of things.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Well spoken @deonb. Here in the EU, Norway specifically, there is some Chademo presence (it's the only fast charge option here), but not enough that Tesla couldn't become the leader by installing just 5-10 superchargers at strategic locations.
the thing is, trying to meet all super charging needs by drawing lines between cities and plopping them in every so many miles just won't cut it. need for super charging goes well beyond predictable distances and branches away from major routes. with Tesla's current plans, large tracks of WA and Oregon will be out of limits without long waits at L2 charging stations. A CHAdeMO adapter would reduce those "no go" zones substantially. we love our wilderness up here and like to go out into it on a regular basis.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Agreed. One second option if/when Tesla becomes a major player is to have the proper superchargers in strategic locations (90-120kW) while at more secondary locations they could put maybe just one "not-so-supercharger" which would be a crippled version of a supercharger, say 30-60kW. Not sure they would do this though as it may "taint" the supercharger concept. One other way would be to support the new SAE combo connector and DC charge standard and push for adoption of that technology, which would be shared with other manufacturers. This however won't solve your dilemma (being in an area with abundant ChAdeMO infrastructure already in place).
bollar
Disgruntled Member
I'm inclined to agree with you. I want a standard connector that helps make it economical to have ubiquitous charging stations. I want to be able to visit Marfa, TX (look it up) and know that I can recharge without committing to an overnight in an RV park. To me, the economics are going to require a standard connector that all EVs can use.
I would buy a third party adapter in a second if it was tested and reliable. I wouldn't even bother to wait to see what Tesla was going to come out with.
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rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Or Tesla could allow third parties to install super chargers. The sales numbers are indicating that Model S is outselling the LEAF and MiEV by substantial margins. It won't take long before Model S is the most common EV on the road. So, who do you want to accommodate?
youlikeadajuice
P 9130
Below is a picture of my parking garage in NYC with a recently installed chademo station...the city is installing a series of chademo stations as part of it's electric taxi pilot program. I don't think anyone does not want to see more supercharger locations installed, but as pointed out above, Tesla can not handle every driver's situation, and the more chargers our cars can take advantage of, the better. We also know that Tesla's supercharger plans do not include installations inside of destination points (major cities). However, major cities are installing chademo chargers, so they would make excellent "destination chargers". We can plug in to virtually any type of charging station and electrical outlet...why exclude chademo?
bollar
Disgruntled Member
The decision isn't binary -- one could install both, I suppose.
If I were a business owner and was resource limited, I think I'd install an 80 Amp J1772 until it was clear which of the DC direct technologies would prevail.
I just wrote to Tesla ownership and asked specifically about the availability (or possible availability) of a CHAdeMO adapter for North American Model S owners.
The reply isn't great, it basically implies that there would have to be a hardware modification and not just a firmware modification in order to get a Model S to work with CHAdeMO. Here's the quote:
"In the current state, the US Spec Model S was not designed for CHAdeMO charging applications. If we do come out with some kind of retrofit, however, we will most certainly release information to our owners regarding this change."
The reply isn't great, it basically implies that there would have to be a hardware modification and not just a firmware modification in order to get a Model S to work with CHAdeMO. Here's the quote:
"In the current state, the US Spec Model S was not designed for CHAdeMO charging applications. If we do come out with some kind of retrofit, however, we will most certainly release information to our owners regarding this change."
This is very disappointing. For a company "ahead" of the game in many respects, this seems like a significant misstep in planning and/or perspective.
mknox
Well-Known Member
It could still be an adapter, an external black box if you will, between the CHAdeMO charger and the Model S charge port. But even if so, it would likely be horrendously expensive!
Am I allowed to say that "pride" might have played a role here... I think it strange that they deployed superchargers with their own proprietary connector. Elon mentions that Tesla's ultimate goal is to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles, but making a proprietary connector doesn't quite accomplish that.
Regardless, I still think Tesla is awesome, and I bet you they will solve this issue to the satisfaction of current owners.
I didn't mean to indicate I thought the Leaf wouldn't be a hit, just saying if they don't get to Prius level sales numbers in 10 years, not sure you'll see a DC charger every 50 miles along routes in west Texas for example. They are concentrated around major cities and on west coast it seems. There isn't a single one within 200 miles of me (no Superchargers either though yet).
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CHAdeMO is only popular because they got their first. No other company is seriously supporting them other than Nissan which makes it an issue. If all the German and American companies were behind it then Tesla should absolutely support it as well but the SAE DC combo plug is being backed further splitting the market (yet again). So in a sense, CHAdeMO got there first but there is no promise they will dominate.
In an ideal world the Model S would have a port for every single standard that exists without an adapter. If in 5 years CHAdeMO has thousands and thousands of locations then Tesla would be stupid not to natively support it.
I still hope they support it even with an expensive adapter if needed as there are pockets of people it will really help.
In an ideal world the Model S would have a port for every single standard that exists without an adapter. If in 5 years CHAdeMO has thousands and thousands of locations then Tesla would be stupid not to natively support it.
I still hope they support it even with an expensive adapter if needed as there are pockets of people it will really help.
Also remember that there existed no 90+kW DC charging standard when the Model S was being developed. And CHAdeMO only supports up to ~62kW (? I think). Tesla obviously wants higher charge rates, so they had to create their own 'standard'.
It isn't just because Tesla wants Apple like lock-in. It is because there existed no acceptable standards for Tesla at the time. I fully expect for US High Powered DC charging to mostly conform to 'Tesla Supercharger' standard at least electrically. If not in the future adapting the same connectors also.
It isn't just because Tesla wants Apple like lock-in. It is because there existed no acceptable standards for Tesla at the time. I fully expect for US High Powered DC charging to mostly conform to 'Tesla Supercharger' standard at least electrically. If not in the future adapting the same connectors also.
Puyallup Bill
Member
The whole on-the-road HP charging situation is frustrating. The Roadster to Model S adapter finally appeared in the Tesla store, so I figured since there are several Roadster HPCs out this way, I'll go that route. After 3 days of trying, I still have not been able to find out if it is really and truly available. Seems like such a simple question, but I can't get an answer.
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