BMW touting a P85D killer?

[ckessel]

If we are to discuss performance there is a lot more to it than 0-60 that is relevant.

We are here to discuss performance consumer cars. Not race cars. If we were here to discuss race cars, it'd be something like a Formula 1 forum.

Consequently, the natural discussion and comparison points would be those items most consumers in the Tesla/BMW/Audi niche would use, such as straight line performance and cornering on typical consumer driven roads.

Consumers don't drive the Ring. They do accelerate frequently from low speeds.
Consumers don't take track corners at 140mph. They do take corners on rural highways.

If BMW makes a car that's superior on the Ring, that's a point in their favor for those folks for whom driving the Ring is a typical usage, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of the market.

 

[point1]

Well said...no autobahn's anywhere else, so track performance / autobahn performance is irrelevant...



- - - Updated - - -

ecarfan mentioned those folks...they are the .001%...

Probably not for BMW. And Europeans. And Americans who drive on track days.

 

[point1]

We are here to discuss performance consumer cars. Not race cars. If we were here to discuss race cars, it'd be something like a Formula 1 forum.

Consequently, the natural discussion and comparison points would be those items most consumers in the Tesla/BMW/Audi niche would use, such as straight line performance and cornering on typical consumer driven roads.

Consumers don't drive the Ring. They do accelerate frequently from low speeds.
Consumers don't take track corners at 140mph. They do take corners on rural highways.

If BMW makes a car that's superior on the Ring, that's a point in their favor for those folks for whom driving the Ring is a typical usage, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of the market.

Well you don't have to go to the ring, any track or alpine road will work. Never said we were talking about race cars. Is the BMW a race car because it can lap a track?

 

[Jaff]

Agreed...the .001%...

We are here to discuss performance consumer cars. Not race cars. If we were here to discuss race cars, it'd be something like a Formula 1 forum.

Consequently, the natural discussion and comparison points would be those items most consumers in the Tesla/BMW/Audi niche would use, such as straight line performance and cornering on typical consumer driven roads.

Consumers don't drive the Ring. They do accelerate frequently from low speeds.
Consumers don't take track corners at 140mph. They do take corners on rural highways.

If BMW makes a car that's superior on the Ring, that's a point in their favor for those folks for whom driving the Ring is a typical usage, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of the market.

 

[ckessel]

Well you don't have to go to the ring, any track or alpine road will work.

I'm still not grasping your point. Are you contending running under track conditions is a normal and regular case for luxury performance car consumers? And that driving alpine road is like driving a track? I certainly have some nicely winding mountain roads in my area, but I don't think even at my most aggressive I'd ever remotely come close to driving them like one would drive on a track.

If those things are true, then it'd be criteria that should be weighted heavily. If that's not true, then it's a largely irrelevant measure.

Is that your point, that you're saying driving under track conditions and alpine roads are frequent luxury performance car consumer activities?

Perhaps you should list what you consider important criteria in a performance luxury consumer car. Mine would be acceleration and handling in urban areas and nearby rural areas. I suspect I'm fairly typical of most such consumers based on those I've met, but I'm open to facts that would prove otherwise.

 

[wallet.dat]

Well, playing Devil's advocate here, but the standard M5 can already decisively beat a P85+ around a track... using an archaic ICE, a CoG height rivaling that of a UPS truck, with a drag coefficient to match (ok, I'm exaggerating here, but you get the idea ). BMW's chassis game is that good. I'm really looking forward to them evolving their electric drive and the accompanying EV or hybrids that go along with it, in the future. Competition is always good because it breeds better cars and more choices for the consumer.

 

[point1]

I'm still not grasping your point. Are you contending running under track conditions is a normal and regular case for luxury performance car consumers? And that driving alpine road is like driving a track? I certainly have some nicely winding mountain roads in my area, but I don't think even at my most aggressive I'd ever remotely come close to driving them like one would drive on a track.

If those things are true, then it'd be criteria that should be weighted heavily. If that's not true, then it's a largely irrelevant measure.

Is that your point, that you're saying driving under track conditions and alpine roads are frequent luxury performance car consumer activities?

Perhaps you should list what you consider important criteria in a performance luxury consumer car. Mine would be acceleration and handling in urban areas and nearby rural areas. I suspect I'm fairly typical of most such consumers based on those I've met, but I'm open to facts that would prove otherwise.

No my point is that the Tesla Model S can't lap a track, the BMW can, and unless Tesla make a Model S capable of driving on a track without going into limp mode after 3 minutes it's ridiculous to mock BMW, Audi etc in terms of performance. It only makes you look like a fanboy if you do.

There are several things Tesla does right. Overall performance is something they can improve, as well as the interior which is not comparable to other luxury sedans, however the new seats is a step in the right direction.

 

[dsm363]

Probably not for BMW. And Europeans. And Americans who drive on track days.

I'll give you one point for that but that's still a small fraction of the car buying public. There is no one perfect car for everyone. It's entirely possible a Tesla won't meet their needs for many years and that's fine. That's why it's good there are so many cars to choose from. BMW makes great cars and will likely beat Tesla on the pure track performance for a few years.

 

[matbl]

Old news...
BMW Power eDrive: The Future of Plug in Hybrid Drive

 

[ecarfan]

BMW is welcome to the 0.001% of all high end car purchasers who drive their expensive luxury vehicles on race tracks or in autoX. The rest of buyers don't care if they can lap the Ring at max speed or not. Many of them are impressed that their Tesla can reach freeway merging speed faster than almost anything else on the road, at any price, and do it in quiet comfort.

 

[Krugerrand]

No my point is that the Tesla Model S can't lap a track, the BMW can, and unless Tesla make a Model S capable of driving on a track without going into limp mode after 3 minutes it's ridiculous to mock BMW, Audi etc in terms of performance. It only makes you look like a fanboy if you do.

There are several things Tesla does right. Overall performance is something they can improve, as well as the interior which is not comparable to other luxury sedans, however the new seats is a step in the right direction.

Okay. In reverse now: There are several things BMW does right. Interior is as luxurious as it gets (too bad most people don't live in their cars and therefore like to save that kind of luxury for their living quarters, or that many people really do like a minimalist approach), however they could improve overall fuel economy, significantly reduce maintenance costs by getting rid of thousands of parts, actually build a real EV and not just talk about it...

 

[wallet.dat]

BMW is welcome to the 0.001% of all high end car purchasers who drive their expensive luxury vehicles on race tracks or in autoX. The rest of buyers don't care if they can lap the Ring at max speed or not. Many of them are impressed that their Tesla can reach freeway merging speed faster than almost anything else on the road, at any price, and do it in quiet comfort.

0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.

 

[dsm363]

0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.

0-60 time equals fun for a lot of people. Sure we don't need anything really more than 6-8 seconds there but people want it. It's certainly more applicable to most Americans at least than Nürburgring lap time.

 

[bonnie]

0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.

I disagree. Not only do I enjoy the acceleration of my Roadster after 3 years of driving, I've sold many EVs to people sitting in the passenger seat who want that same feeling in their daily driver. It's not just an advertising tool - it's advertising and it quickly becomes a 'must have', once experienced.

I enter into evidence the countless sets of rear tires I've purchased. -sigh- But there is this one great entrance ramp near here with a double S curve, so it slams you one way and then the other and, well ... yeah. The acceleration is great.

 

[Jaff]

Not sure why you think this...might be this way where you reside, but certainly not here in NA...I enjoy my 0-60 advantage every time "a gasser" needs to be dispatched...I'll beat you to the next stoplight / stop sign / on ramp (with extremely few exceptions) every time...and there is not one thing that 99.99% of the gassers can do about it...:biggrin:

0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.

 

[ecarfan]

0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.

Disagree. Everyone can use and enjoy experiencing rapid acceleration on the roads they drive on every day. Very few owners make the effort to take their Model S onto a racetrack to experience driving it at well over street legal speeds for extended periods.

That is why 0-60 times mean something to the typical buyer, and they don't care about whether or not a Model S can do a lap on the Ring flat out (and most people have no idea what we are referring to when we use the word "Ring" in this context).

 

[wallet.dat]

Not sure why you think this...might be this way where you reside, but certainly not here in NA...I enjoy my 0-60 advantage every time "a gasser" needs to be dispatched...I'll beat you to the next stoplight / stop sign / on ramp (with extremely few exceptions) every time...and there is not one thing that 99.99% of the gassers can do about it...:biggrin:

Probably a combination of where I reside (big city) and the way I drive (conservatively). I've never had any sort of problem merging into traffic, changing lanes, or whatever other maneuver auto-manufacturers try to sell me on their 0-60 times for... and I've had cars that would struggle to do 12 seconds 0-60. If I want to go fast, I take my fast car to a track.

 

[yobigd20]

still has an ICE engine and needs gas. twice the parts, twice the cost, and twice the problems.

 

[wallet.dat]

Disagree. Everyone can use and enjoy experiencing rapid acceleration on the roads they drive on every day. Very few owners make the effort to take their Model S onto a racetrack to experience driving it at well over street legal speeds for extended periods. That is why 0-60 times mean something to the typical buyer, and they don't care about whether or not a Model S can do a lap on the Ring flat out (and most people have no idea what we are referring to when we use the word "Ring" in this context).

Ok, I'll grant you that. But then too a cars slalom speed would also be important off-track in daily driving situations, especially for curves like the ones Bonnie mentioned. If a car can carry more entry speed through a curve, there's less need to be able to accelerate back up to speed on the exit. So sure, the exact 'Ring lap time that a professional driver can extract from a particular car might not be 1:1 relevant to the average driver, it does strongly imply how well that car might handle everyday roads and the curves that go along with them, depending on where you live of course

 

[rocketdallas]

The good news is BMW may be developing an alternative choice to the P85D for persons who might be inclined to BMW. The bad news is because of the need for packaging electric and ICE engine components and batteries, it looks like the 5 series GT. :wink: