Another - installing 14-50 (or 6-50)

[JonnyM3P]

Hello,
I would like to install a 240v 14-50 outlet next to my main service panel. But looking into it, is there a Neutral for this? I see the 2 hots and a ground only (or am I missing something).
If thats the case, would a 6-50 be a better option?

If so, can someone recommend a 50amp breaker? I heard I would need a gfci breaker as I will be using the mobile charger and not a wall charger. As far as receptacle, a Hubbell/Bryant would be in use. Also, what gauge wires to use?

Thanks in advance.

 

[E90alex]

The wire with white tape is the neutral

 

[Cosmacelf]

Main service panels have the neutrals and the grounds bonded together. So you can install either a 14-50 or a 6-50. Since the run will be short, might as well install a 14-50 since it is more multi purpose. Both the neutral and the ground would get connected to that neutral/ground bar lower left. Personally, I would install a Tesla Wall Connector and skip needing an expensive GFCI breaker.

Ive never seen a 4 gang breaker like that. Is there an electrician in the house that can decode what’s going on here?

 

[Sophias_dad]

Ive never seen a 4 gang breaker like that. Is there an electrician in the house that can decode what’s going on here?

I'd wager those are four 75A breakers, which hopefully evenly share the load. Given the amount of corrosion in that panel, I'm not sure I'd trust anything in it.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Hello,
I would like to install a 240v 14-50 outlet next to my main service panel. But looking into it, is there a Neutral for this? I see the 2 hots and a ground only (or am I missing something).
If thats the case, would a 6-50 be a better option?

If so, can someone recommend a 50amp breaker? I heard I would need a gfci breaker as I will be using the mobile charger and not a wall charger. As far as receptacle, a Hubbell/Bryant would be in use. Also, what gauge wires to use?

Thanks in advance.View attachment 949714View attachment 949716View attachment 949717

As far as recommending a GFCI breaker, you really don't have choices to make. There's only one manufacturer of breakers that will fit a given panel.

Regarding wire, 8 gauge in conduit would be okay for 50 amps. Since its outdoors, make sure its water rated (THWN or THWN2). I'm not sure of the rules regarding a 'whip' where its not connecting an appliance. I'm sure someone will answer that possibility.

I'd also encourage you to get a permanently wired wall charger. The price difference is negligible(after the GFCI/receptacle/box costs) and the UMC isn't really designed for out-in-the-elements use. I'd use 6 gauge in conduit for 60 amps(48 amp charging) for a HPWC.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I'd wager those are four 75A breakers, which hopefully evenly share the load. Given the amount of corrosion in that panel, I'm not sure I'd trust anything in it.

The breakers appear to be being used in a back feed arrangement. So, assuming two 75A breakers, you have the feed coming in from the meter directly into what would normally be the outputs of the breakers. The wires connected to the lugs at the bottom are then feed wires for the internal sub panel elsewhere in the house.

By design, yes, the load would be perfectly balanced between those two 75A breakers since each would see a portion of the 240V total house load.

So, you have a 150A service there. Out of curiosity, what double pole breakers do you have in your sub panel, their amps and what they serve?

 

[JonnyM3P]

So, you have a 150A service there. Out of curiosity, what double pole breakers do you have in your sub panel, their amps and what they serve?

The sub panel has 5 double pole breakers.
60amp - Air Handler
50amp - Range
30amp - Dryer
30amp - ac compressor
25amp - water heater

The outdoor Main Panel uses a Siemen breaker.. would any Siemen breaker work? I mean, are some bigger than others?

I am now considering a hard wired wall connector. Is a Gen2 for $200 a good buy? Obviously, Gen3 would be better, but found a used Gen2 for $200. Sounds like a good deal.

 

[JonnyM3P]

I am now considering a hard wired wall connector. Is a Gen2 for $200 a good buy? Obviously, Gen3 would be better, but found a used Gen2 for $200. Sounds like a good deal.

Is a 150amp panel enough? I know many prefer and/or recommend 200amps.

 

[davewill]

The sub panel has 5 double pole breakers.
60amp - Air Handler
50amp - Range
30amp - Dryer
30amp - ac compressor
25amp - water heater

The outdoor Main Panel uses a Siemen breaker.. would any Siemen breaker work? I mean, are some bigger than others?

I am now considering a hard wired wall connector. Is a Gen2 for $200 a good buy? Obviously, Gen3 would be better, but found a used Gen2 for $200. Sounds like a good deal.

There's got to be breakers for your regular outlets and lights. I suspect there's another subpanel somewhere in the house.

 

[JonnyM3P]

There's got to be breakers for your regular outlets and lights. I suspect there's another subpanel somewhere in the house.

Sorry. Yes, there are individual breakers as well. I just named the double poles.

 

[MLXXXp]

I don't think you can put a breaker in the "main" outside panel, since it wouldn't be protected by the main breakers. You would have to put the 50A breaker in your inside panel along with all the other house breakers.

It doesn't look like you have two slots available for a new double pole breaker, so you may have to add a sub panel or box for the new breaker. If you add a new panel or box, either inside or outside, you would use whatever breaker type is required for the specific panel/box you choose.

Also, you should do a load calculation, in accordance with your local electrical code, to see whether you can even add another 50A circuit to your 150A service.

 

[davewill]

I don't think you can put a breaker in the "main" outside panel, since it wouldn't be protected by the main breakers. You would have to put the 50A breaker in your inside panel along with all the other house breakers.

It doesn't look like you have two slots available for a new double pole breaker, so you may have to add a sub panel or box for the new breaker. If you add a new panel or box, either inside or outside, you would use whatever breaker type is required for the specific panel/box you choose.

Also, you should do a load calculation, in accordance with your local electrical code, to see whether you can even add another 50A circuit to your 150A service.

I don't pretend to know whether he can install his circuit in that panel or not, but it would be protected by the main breakers. The incoming feed comes from the meter to the breakers you see, THEN onto the busbars in that panel. The wires at the bottom go to the subpanel.

 

[MLXXXp]

The incoming feed comes from the meter to the breakers you see, THEN onto the busbars in that panel. The wires at the bottom go to the subpanel.

Ah, yes, you are correct. The main breakers would be fed from what's under that grey cover on the left side of the breakers. Sorry for getting that wrong. I've never seen a panel like that before.

 

[Rocky_H]

@JonnyM3P Yeah, my first thought is that you really need to do a load calculation, like @MLXXXp mentioned. That looks like a pretty hefty set of circuits to only be in a 150A supply. I wouldn't be sure if you can fit an additional 50A circuit. If there are only about 20 or 30 amps left to spare, this may affect what you choose to do.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Hmmm … you are indeed tight with that many big electrical consumers and only 150 amps. What I would do is to buy a $50 clamp on ammeter from Lowe’s or Home Depot (like this one Commercial Electric 600A AC Digital Clamp Meter CM-2033R - The Home Depot) and simply measure how much load you are using when things are rockin in your house. Ie, you have the ACs running, dishwasher running (and thus the hot water heater is on), etc. measure each of the two big black wires going downwards separately and that’ll tell you how much amperage you are actually using. You have a ceiling of 150 amps per wire. A Wall Connector could use up to 48A from each wire (each phase). You might indeed only have room to add say 20A more load at 240 Volts without being being in danger of tripping the main breaker.

 

[JonnyM3P]

@JonnyM3P Yeah, my first thought is that you really need to do a load calculation, like @MLXXXp mentioned. That looks like a pretty hefty set of circuits to only be in a 150A supply. I wouldn't be sure if you can fit an additional 50A circuit. If there are only about 20 or 30 amps left to spare, this may affect what you choose to do.

Would it be possible to add a lower amp breaker? Or lower the amp in the tesla app?

I would also be scheduling charging from like 11pm to 6am.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Would it be possible to add a lower amp breaker? Or lower the amp in the tesla app?

I would also be scheduling charging from like 11pm to 6am.

Absolutely. How much driving do you normally do?

 

[MLXXXp]

What I would do is to buy a $50 clamp on ammeter from Lowe’s or Home Depot (like this one Commercial Electric 600A AC Digital Clamp Meter CM-2033R - The Home Depot) and simply measure how much load you are using when things are rockin in your house.

It doesn't matter if readings indicate how much current you have to spare. If a load calculation doesn't work, you won't pass inspection. If you don't get it inspected and you end up damaging something due to an overload, it's unlikely that your insurance will cover it.

Do a proper load calculation to determine what's legally possible, and I highly recommend you get the proper approvals and inspections!

 

[JonnyM3P]

Absolutely. How much driving do you normally do?

I do about 60-100 miles a day (self employed).. some days I do 20 miles, somedays I can do 150.

 

[Rocky_H]

Would it be possible to add a lower amp breaker? Or lower the amp in the tesla app?

Yes, but you've got to get out of this thinking of being stuck on a 14-50 outlet. If the circuit level is something different, you will install something different.

This is what is so convenient about Tesla's wall connector. It's a configurable setting device that can go on many different levels of circuit, from 15A up to 60A. So that is a pretty convenient way to do this when you find out how many amps you have available for your circuit. There's a configuration when you set up the wall connector, where you specify what level of circuit it's on.