FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[lzolman]

Failed wife test, 12.3 now banned after second drive.

Residential unmarked street, making left turn, waited for cross traffic, then followed cross traffic, which was then making a left turn while we were continuing straight.

Acceleration was too brisk and inappropriate given the slowing turning lead vehicle. Concern was ramming mode tendency (there was no danger; it was just stupid, there was nowhere to go).

I did not intervene. No braking took place, lead car turned before ramming and FSD scampered past.

Was not close, but inappropriate. Banned.

Failure. I would not fail it but I don’t make the rules. I am generally very permissive of flaws as you all know.

None of these new versions are significant in any way. They aren’t changing anything, folks! (How are people not seeing that? I don’t even have one of these updates and it is obvious to me it is the same thing!)

I’ve given up on v12. Given the lack of progress over the hugely significant time of a couple weeks, it looks like no further improvement is likely. It looks like we are at the local maximum. Possibly slightly off of it - the influencers claimed earlier versions were better!

Personally I would be happy if it just fixed the glaring and crippling speed and stopping and going issues reported by literally everyone using v12. You’d never hear from me again which I think you’d all be grateful for.

But now even that will not be much solace since getting wife approval will require much more - basically expert-level, perfect human driving, a perfect blend of defensive and assertive driving.

Furthermore with it going wider than anyone ever thought possible - to the entire non-legacy US fleet - the fearmongerers may finally be right and something bad is going to happen and then I’m going to be stuck with software which doesn’t work (periodically requiring pedal input, while unable to stop smoothly - so ALSO requiring exquisitely feathered pedal input to smooth THAT out) while Tesla halts all further releases.

You've perfectly captured the way I felt about V11, but IMO it's a bit premature a lamentation for V12. Right now Tesla is embroiled in using FSD(S) as an image enhancer almost more than they're concerned with the actual functionality. I admit this is probably more of a rant than I usually want to emit. But I'm feeling like the whole "ChatGPT moment" (or not) needs to fizzle and some kind of release cadence needs to materialize out of the fog. With steady improvement showing.

We're not there yet, but there's still hope.

 

[kpanda17]

Supervised FSD
Why the name change? Going to the largest group and reiterating that you must pay attention?

 

[Mardak]

MY with 24.3.10 now shows summon in the phone app

Can you clarify to help reduce confusion? The Model Y is now newly showing Summon because it received the free FSD trial (mainly to access FSD Supervised 12.3.3 but it also gives access to other FSD Capability features). USS vehicles with FSD Capability have had Summon available, and 2024.3.10 does not add new 12.x-based Summon yet? Similarly, Park Assist on USS vehicles shows the colored arcs and distance measurements whereas High Fidelity Park Assist shows colored 3D visualizations of nearby objects as well as painted road markings, and I believe this so far is only for USS-less vehicles also getting the new Autopark (where you can select a target parking spot instead of only really activating when USS detects a gap between 2 vehicles).

 

[Hiline]

Supervised FSD
Why the name change? Going to the largest group and reiterating that you must pay attention?

Probably to somehow hold the CEO’s claim that v12 was not going to be Beta, whatever that’s supposed to mean.

 

[zoomer0056]

Supervised FSD
Why the name change? Going to the largest group and reiterating that you must pay attention?

FSD (supervised) is the new name for safety. Too many people do not read the manual. Instead, they see youtube videos where others are carelessly using FSD. I think the new name will help, not solve, mitigate carelessly using this software.

 

[kpanda17]

FSD (supervised) is the new name for safety. Too many people do not read the manual. Instead, they see youtube videos where others are carelessly using FSD. I think the new name will help, not solve, mitigate carelessly using this software.

Even worse, FSD driving while wearing Apple Vision Pro
Imagine anti nag device on the steering wheel, FSD driving the Tesla and working or watching a movie with the AVP
Crazy possible

 

[Mardak]

Why the name change?

There were other changes to the in-product messaging of FSD other than just the "Beta" to "Supervised." Perhaps early feedback from people newly getting 12.3.2.1 was the confusion around "early limited access Beta," "pay extra attention to the road" and "be prepared to act immediately" type warnings as those didn't match the significant improvements of 12.x since 10.x.

The 12.3.3 messaging does keep the "use additional caution and remain attentive" and " Do not become complacent" while also emphasizing the Supervised aspect with "It does not make your vehicle autonomous." So practically this just reflects that FSD is no longer in early development.

 

[fasteddie7]

12.3.2.1 fixed almost every issue on my test route. Forks are still an issue, and it must really be paying attention to where I’m looking since I got a strike for checking cross traffic when it thinks I’m looking at a mounted camera. Auto park works pretty well also.

 

[Todd Burch]

So I'm trying to figure out why you're feeling so victimized by this. I'm "stuck" on 12.3 too, and I don't give a Stevia. If intermediate rollouts get halted, they've got "feaures" I don't want. I am so happy with finally (thank God) seeing actual progress. I'm sure not hearing anything about 12.3.2.3.1.2.2.1 that excites me. When something finally reaches me, there'll much more likely be something to celebrate than there would've been in the aborted versions.

No reason to be excited for 12.3.2.3 over 12.3 IMO. No significant improvement in my experience. I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference personally.

 

[nikolajz1]

Impressive trip through downtown DC today. Handled some of the major traffic circles very well. Handled some complex pedestrian issues and cars stopped in the middle of the road well.

Only real annoyance I have now is acceleration being too much at times and yellow light behavior. Slamming brakes regardless of where you are when a light turns yellow is unsafe.

 

[lzolman]

Impressive trip through downtown DC today. Handled some of the major traffic circles very well. Handled some complex pedestrian issues and cars stopped in the middle of the road well.

Only real annoyance I have now is acceleration being too much at times and yellow light behavior. Slamming brakes regardless of where you are when a light turns yellow is unsafe.

I haven't yet experienced any unnecessary sudden braking, but I haven't put that many miles on it. Do you know what the proximity was to vehicles behind you when those brakes got slammed on? I'm just wondering whether it considers this and chooses the hard braking when there's no danger of rear-ending.

 

[Mardak]

None of these new versions are significant in any way. They aren’t changing anything, folks!

While FSD behavior might not be improving significantly since 12.3 with these additional 12.3.x versions, it's still quite significant for those who haven't been able to use any 12.x. Autopilot team probably needed to redirect some resources to get it and Vision Autopark working for newly delivered vehicles and recent USS-less vehicles. There's still a lot of other vehicle configurations that are waiting for 2024.x with 12.x, but at least you were able to get some 12.x 2 weeks earlier. The population of regular FSD Beta users is significantly smaller than what Tesla has been focusing on in the last week.

Presumably other parts of Autopilot team are working on 12.4 with actual behavior changes but deferring priority to the main directive of getting 12.x to more people, so it seems a bit premature to declare 12.x has likely maxed out with no future improvements.

 

[rlsd]

I haven't yet experienced any unnecessary sudden braking, but I haven't put that many miles on it. Do you know what the proximity was to vehicles behind you when those brakes got slammed on? I'm just wondering whether it considers this and chooses the hard braking when there's no danger of rear-ending.

I had a hard braking when yellow light turned red last night. It's hard to say it's v12.3.2.1 fault or not. The time between yellow and red was too short. Humans would have the same problem. Many people would run through the red light or have hard braking like FSD. I think it's the city fault. It's very difficult for elderly people drive in that situation.

 

[PianoAl]

It should be Full Supervised Driving System. It removes all the confusing 'self' which most of us took to mean the car would be fully driving itself when the ambiguity meant that the lawyers could argue the car was always meant to be fully driving me-self, therefore I would always be there to supervise.

Technically, this car had FSDS:

 

[Daniel in SD]

Big failure here; really bad, note that the car was totally visible, clearly visualized, but FSD drifted forward anyway, requiring the other driver to drift over:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1774121944230830496

Soon we'll have FSD 12.3.x jousting with FSD 12.3.x - two Teslas here, just a matter of time.

Is it just me or has this guy never posted an edge case?
It seems like this type of obscured turn will always be difficult for HW3/4. They need a camera in the upper driver side corner of the windshield.

 

[Mardak]

Which of the three forward cameras does the training have access to?

All the cameras should be used in end-to-end training with it learning which camera signals to pay attention to in making control decisions. Here's some examples from AI Day 2022 multi-trip reconstruction to show what the front cameras see:

The main camera sees down about as much as the fisheye wide camera while the narrow camera does get a little bit closer view sooner. HW4 actually removes the narrow camera as the higher resolution gives more detail overall.

It seems likely the input camera signals end-to-end might need to pick up on are there given the ability to see say the middle line of "E" (of painted YIELD), so it could be more of the training data with a mix of other low contrast differences between road and pothole as well as inconsistent driving example behaviors is leading to current 12.x and HW3 training data not really responding to potholes?

 

[zoomer0056]

I haven't yet experienced any unnecessary sudden braking, but I haven't put that many miles on it.

Try driving where there are people riding bicycles in their dedicated lanes next to cars. Or approaching a hill crest where the car can't see beyond the crest.

 

[kabin]

Failed wife test, 12.3 now banned after second drive.

Residential unmarked street, making left turn, waited for cross traffic, then followed cross traffic, which was then making a left turn while we were continuing straight.

Acceleration was too brisk and inappropriate given the slowing turning lead vehicle. Concern was ramming mode tendency (there was no danger; it was just stupid, there was nowhere to go).

I did not intervene. No braking took place, lead car turned before ramming and FSD scampered past.

Was not close, but inappropriate. Banned.

Failure. I would not fail it but I don’t make the rules. I am generally very permissive of flaws as you all know.

None of these new versions are significant in any way. They aren’t changing anything, folks! (How are people not seeing that? I don’t even have one of these updates and it is obvious to me it is the same thing!)

I’ve given up on v12. Given the lack of progress over the hugely significant time of a couple weeks, it looks like no further improvement is likely. It looks like we are at the local maximum. Possibly slightly off of it - the influencers claimed earlier versions were better!

Personally I would be happy if it just fixed the glaring and crippling speed and stopping and going issues reported by literally everyone using v12. You’d never hear from me again which I think you’d all be grateful for.

But now even that will not be much solace since getting wife approval will require much more - basically expert-level, perfect human driving, a perfect blend of defensive and assertive driving.

Furthermore with it going wider than anyone ever thought possible - to the entire non-legacy US fleet - the fearmongerers may finally be right and something bad is going to happen and then I’m going to be stuck with software which doesn’t work (periodically requiring pedal input, while unable to stop smoothly - so ALSO requiring exquisitely feathered pedal input to smooth THAT out) while Tesla halts all further releases.

I'm not looking for perfection. Just a little common sense refinement. I'm to the point where I disengage prior to green light starts due to the needless 'got rice' acceleration profile quickly followed by the WTF decel jerk and then another over acceleration. And just when you think it can't get any worse, it does it with a lead vehicle from a green light start. And I can't leave out the brake side which is equally bad and necessitating disengagement.

In all practicality, for me, v11/v12 remain an overpriced cruise control.

 

[Mardak]

People might not even notice the small stuff when they’re a passenger in the vehicle being autonomously driven from starting point to destination and are more focused on their phone, laptop, conversation with others, etc than the nuance of the drive — as long as it’s not crazy jarring.

Even situations where end-to-end does something "safe enough" such as pulling out for an unprotected left or slowly creeping to get better visibility where other vehicles have enough time to respond such as slowing down or biasing away, this could still result in plenty of honking that passengers might notice and realize maybe it wasn't actually that safe. Presumably better hardware can improve on these situations to improve safety overall even if statistically the older hardware was already some multiple safer than humans driving in general.

Or are you suggesting 12.x needs to be significantly safer than humans in every situation and not just overall by mileage?

 

[zoomer0056]

I'm not looking for perfection. Just a little common sense refinement. I'm to the point where I disengage prior to green light starts due to the needless 'got rice' acceleration profile quickly followed by the WTF decel jerk and then another over acceleration. And just when you think it can't get any worse, it does it with a lead vehicle from a green light start. And I can't leave out the brake side which is equally bad and necessitating disengagement.

In all practicality, for me, v11/v12 remain an overpriced cruise control.

Is this behavior affected by choosing a different drive profile like chill vs standard vs insane? Maybe there's another setting like this in the FSD/Autopilot menu. My 2022 MSLR does not have FSDb and is waiting for an update from 2024.7.2 and an invite for a free month of FSD (supervised).