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But the software can't learn from our disengagements except through new releases, right?
One reason I asked that is related to a particular lane drift problem. At one location, the car frequently, but not always, went into a right-turn-only lane inappropriately.

Then, it stopped making that error. Ten times in a row, it behaved perfectly. Problem solved? Did it learn from my disengagements?

Well, yesterday it made the error again.

So, a cautionary tale for those who write, "I installed the new update and saw a day and night difference in behavior." This robot's inconsistency can lead to unwarranted conclusions.
 
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I've been trying FSD in my 2022 S for the last 3 weeks. I'm not renewing it beyond this first month. At best, it's half-baked software. At worst is a risk to myself and anyone else on the road. It's propensity to move into the passing lane when there is no traffic ahead is annoying and dangerous when faster traffic is approaching in the passing lane. It constantly gets confused with wide off ramps and does not handle onramp merging particularly well. I'll be glad to go back to Auto Pilot, as this feature is more secure and useful.
 
It has been interesting reading this string of posts. I have not used FSD and would not find it worth the money. I do frequently used the AP on limited access highways and really think it is a stress reliever as mentioned in this thread. That being said, it appears from ads that both Ford and GM’s AP have passed Tesla’s.
 
My experience with V12 FSD is quite positive, before that it always go into the turn lanes in the city wrongly making it useless and dangerous. I have been using it for door to door transport without any interventions that involve both city and highway, and handle it quite close to human. Of course, it is not 100% flawless and sometimes it fails and sometimes I just feel uncomfortable how it handles the situation and take over (if I let it goes, it most likely works fine but I am not that brave yet). YMMV depends on where you are, I am in the Dallas metroplex area and with the always constructions and crazy drivers, it handles most situations correctly, likely more training data from my area.
 
Honestly I think its cool tech, but is it worth 100 a month? I don't know. I'm thinking maybe 50 a month in the state its in. Its had a number of mistakes. Some excusable and some real bad. Honestly I think it should be free, because we are beta testing it. Problems so far on a supposed complete system.

1. Misses the up/down poles going into my development--maybe excusable, but it should be able to drive to the house.
2. literally was about to tbone a uhaul the other day.
3. multiple times it has taken way too long to get over to get on the highway/get off the highway and basically when it doesn't make it, it just gives up.
4. tried to go down a one way street.
5. freaked out getting off the highway and tried to turn back on for some weird reason.
6. A number of times it goes too quick coming off/on highways and almost skids off the road. Its better than navigate on autopilot because that 100% would have gone off the road.

This is what I'm supposed to pay 100 dollar a month for? It makes my drive of 100 miles round trip each day more fun, but I shouldn't be paying to fix this product.
 
Just on a lark, I tried the new autopark yesterday. I was in no particular hurry, our deck has newly painted and well marked spaces, and there were no other cars around. I pulled forward and selected a space just behind me that it could back into in one simple turning motion.
It couldn’t have been worse. I mean if they had literally tried to write code to make people think the car was completely incapable, they couldn’t have made it perform worse. It took 90 seconds to back in, with multiple jerky start and stops and pull forwards and frantic wheel turning. I was afraid if anybody saw me I was going to have to jump out of the car and make sure they knew I wasn’t showing up to work drunk. How completely embarrassing must it be for a company that has touted themselves as the leader in autonomous driving for going on 9 years now to only be able to handle such a simple and basic function this poorly?
 
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Just on a lark, I tried the new autopark yesterday. I was in no particular hurry, our deck has newly painted and well marked spaces, and there were no other cars around. I pulled forward and selected a space just behind me that it could back into in one simple turning motion.
It couldn’t have been worse. I mean if they had literally tried to write code to make people think the car was completely incapable, they couldn’t have made it perform worse. It took 90 seconds to back in, with multiple jerky start and stops and pull forwards and frantic wheel turning. I was afraid if anybody saw me I was going to have to jump out of the car and make sure they knew I wasn’t showing up to work drunk. How completely embarrassing must it be for a company that has touted themselves as the leader in autonomous driving for going on 9 years now to only be able to handle such a simple and basic function this poorly?
And yet I get them a round of applause, as the new autopark works much smoother for me, usually doing it in one move, sometimes two, vs the older one that would take 2-4 moves to complete. Sorry your car doesn't work right. :-(

Have you tried picking a spot ahead of you instead of behind you? See if that helps.
 
I own a '23 MYLR which I've had since Feb, no FSD. My wife just bought a '23 M3P that came with FSD for 3 months which just ended. I've run FSD in a combination of highway, suburban, and rural environments. Two things are very clear to me after three months. First, it's performance ranges between excessively timid to suicidal. Second after all the work Tesla engineers have put into this code base, it still doesn't follow some of the most basic rules of the road.

Overall, the level of vigilance and attention required to safely operate in with FSD engaged is significantly in excess of simply driving normally. It's like teaching a first time driver who knows the basic rules (mostly) but is so obviously inexperienced and inconsistent as to require your sub-second intervention. The system is in no way "driver assistance". Rather, it is Tesla product development assistance for those willing to accept the liability and expense of participating. I'm only talking about FSD here. Autopilot, on the other hand, I find to be very useful on the highway.

Summary of FSD behaviors ranging from dangerous to annoying:
1) By far the absolute worst / scariest FSD behavior I experienced was on a 4-lane highway with many at-grade intersections. On multiple occasions while cruising at 65mph in the right lane, the car abruptly attempted to cut right into very short turn lanes. One incident left me with less than a second to recover to avoid the abrupt end of that turn lane and the high-speed swerve required active recovery. (this one is repeatable. FSD will do this every time I pass this intersection). It does this even though the lane is clearly painted with a right turn arrow.
2) Occasional confusion cruising through large, at-grade intersections where FSD seemed to lose track of the lane resulting in abrupt jerk of the wheel left or right.
3) Inexplicable desire of the system to cruise in the passing lane on 4+ lane roads. This one is most annoying because at this point FSD should be best at highway driving. How is it possible that Tesla hasn't figured out that FSD should keep the car in the right lane except as needed to pass slower traffic? Even when I command the car to the right lane with the turn signal, a minute or two later it will try to change to the left lane when I can see faster traffic approaching from behind.
4) (Also an issue with regular AP) The on-ramp acceleration / merge lane swerve. Every time I approach the merge lane the car swerves to 'center' the merged lanes. The car should stick a fixed max distance from the dashed line when on the highway. My Ford with lane keeping and Blue Cruise doesn't do this.
5) FSD fails to initiate the turn signal BEFORE abruptly decelerating for an upcoming turn. FSD signals very late, last 50-100' before the turn regardless of speed. This means the car will abruptly decelerate without a turn signal which could cause a rear-end collision.
6) FSD too tentative at intersections to be used with other traffic present. I get this from a safety perspective, but other drivers don't appreciate a car that stops 10' before a stop sign, then creeps forward before taking off, or jamming on the brakes if cross traffic is detected during the 'creep' phase.

I love both cars for all the regular car stuff they do better than most other cars. However, it's very clear to me that these cars are very far from being truly FSD capable and more than likely lack the sensors necessary to become so. I'm curious if my experience is typical or an outlier.
I think your assessment of FSD being akin to a first time driver very accurate. in our tests it is very good at basic manipulation of the car - lane keeping, executing a turn, stopping and starting smoothly - the mechanics of operating the vehicle. where it sometimes falls short is decision making, where like a new driver it is sometimes over aggressive, sometimes overly cautious, and others just plain confused. this is exacerbated as more lanes of traffic are introduced. for example the system has a very difficult time with multi-lane turns when there are no lines to guide it, and no cars ahead to follow, which it does when in doubt. it will straddle lanes and unintentionally merge in many instances, just like a new driver. since Musk has frequently said they will not return to sensors, I believe we will see more forward looking high-def cameras on the front bumper to try to improve its traffic awareness and anticipation.
 
Here's another analogy that is sometimes relevant:

I had a friend who lived on a windy, mountain road. He drove on that road every day. When I rode as a passenger with him on that road, I was freaked out about how fast we were going.

Screenshot 2024-05-29 at 9.43.39 AM.jpg


But he was actually driving safely, and after I'd driven that road a while, with him or by myself, I wasn't as freaked out.

In the same way, you can be freaked out when first using FSD, but get accustomed to it once you realize that it knows what it's doing. That was the case for me.

I'm not saying that FSD is perfect.
 
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[...] , and after I'd driven that road a while, with him or by myself, I wasn't as freaked out.

In the same way, you can be freaked out when first using FSD, but get accustomed to it once you realize that it knows what it's doing. That was the case for me.
That is true to some extent (I'm not disagreeing with you at all), but when it comes to cutting corners in left turns, going more than 30 km/h over the speed limit in chill mode or changing into a lane that ends just 100m later is not something I'd get more comfortable with over time. I really tried to like the FSD trial, but ultimately went back to basic AP after a week or so.
 
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