And if it did, and a more serious accident resulted (driver trying to drive in to a hedge to avoid getting rear ended, for example) this forum would be flooded with ‘Tesla’s safety features caused an accident!’ posts.
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AP/FSD related crashes
- Thread starter Terminator857
- Start date
There is so much nuance in reality that makes this far more complicated than it appears on the surface.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
There are joke videos made, but basically it's a long the lines that if you really wanted to run over someone in a Tesla, you can mash down the accelerator and it'll still allow it. Basically AI can't account for all situations, and a way for the human to override is always needed, especially when in full manual mode.
Tesla does have obstacle aware acceleration, but it's designed to still allow acceleration in certain cases, plus it can be disabled (and vehicle in question might not have it). I remember reading about false positives for an on ramp to a bridge that has a stop sign. The obstacle aware acceleration prevented car from applying full acceleration, which led to a dangerous situation.
Basically L4/L5 is irrelevant, these systems will never be perfect (see the other thread where yet again a L4 Cruise car is stuck in the middle of an intersection). The fact of the matter is automakers are not liable for safety systems that fail to prevent an accident due to inaction, but may be liable if they actively cause the accident or prevent the driver from performing an action that may have prevented the accident.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Hold mode is awesome but definitely seems like it could be hazardous. Just easy to forget you are in drive. Or in reverse for that matter.
DanCar
Active Member
In late May 2022, Ford issued a recall for the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E due to a Unintended Acceleration Issue resulting from the powertrain control module (PCM) functional safety software potentially failing to detect a software error, resulting in unintended acceleration, unintended deceleration, or a loss of drive power.[8]
Not saying it’s never happened, there have been a lot of cars made over the years. I’m saying that taken as a whole the instances of a mechanical failure vs meatbag failure will approximate to zero.It was later discovered that the floor mats of the affected Toyota vehicles could cause them to accelerate suddenly, and that Toyota had known about these problems but had misled consumers and continued to manufacture defective cars. In March 2014, the Department of Justice issued $1.2 billion of financial penalties against Toyota in a deferred prosecution agreement.[6]
We’ll see. Maybe her Tesla suddenly and voluntarily crashed itself. I wouldn’t put my money on it though.
I had a Toyota built just after the floor mat issue. Item number one for every periodic service checklist was, "Check driver's floor mat for proper installation".
DanCar
Active Member
Funny that the slide says average crash 0.5 million miles but text says crash every 0.6 million miles.
In the last 12 months, a Tesla with FSD Beta engaged experienced an airbag-deployed crash about every 3.2 M miles, which is ~5x safer than the most recently available US average of 0.6M miles/police-reported crash
In the last 12 months, a Tesla with FSD Beta engaged experienced an airbag-deployed crash about every 3.2 M miles, which is ~5x safer than the most recently available US average of 0.6M miles/police-reported crash
DanCar
Active Member
From the comments in the thread: "... my teslas emergency braking definitely prevented the impact. ..."
If you are wondering if AP includes emergency braking:
www.tesla.com
Active safety features come standard on all Tesla vehicles made after September 2014 for elevated protection at all times. These features are made possible by our Autopilot hardware and software system and include:
If you are wondering if AP includes emergency braking:
Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support
Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.
- Automatic Emergency Braking: Detects cars or obstacles that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Don’t have any idea that this was AP/FSD.From the comments in the thread: "... my teslas emergency braking definitely prevented the impact. ..."
If you are wondering if AP includes emergency braking:
Active safety features come standard on all Tesla vehicles made after September 2014 for elevated protection at all times. These features are made possible by our Autopilot hardware and software system and include:Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support
Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.
- Automatic Emergency Braking: Detects cars or obstacles that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly
Sure as heck was not the fault of the cars in front though. Tesla needs to leave greater following distance he wants to have any chance of avoiding a collision like this. Though there are no guarantees.
DanCar
Active Member
From the comments in the thread: "... my teslas emergency braking definitely prevented the impact. ..."
And from Tesla's page it says that emergency braking is part of Autopilot. But if you are talking about what is more commonly thought of as AP, lane centering and speed control, then I suspect that wasn't active.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
If so, this would be incorrect. It's part of their active safety features as described in a separate section of the Owner's Manual.
Of course, in practice, it's performed by the same hardware that is used by AP, so it's a distinction without a difference.
But active safety features come on all cars. Even if Tesla decided to unbundle AP/EAP from the cars (as they did in the early days though my recollection may be incorrect), they would still have the active safety features.
Anyway it doesn't matter. It seems impossible to know what was active in any case. The car veered to the right in the lane at the end which does strongly suggest it was under manual control, though that could have been manual override as well.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Didn't the Tesla avoid the collision? It was the cars behind that collided. Don't know how the insurance would play out with this. If the Tesla hit the car in front, then the car would have had to stay and insurance would charge them, but now that Tesla avoided the crash, it would seem to leave everything to the cars behind.
The accident did not happen in the US, so it's hard to say. If it happened in the US, in a state with traditional 'at fault' insurance, then the driver who's car hit the Tesla would be held liable.
Some places have 'no fault' insurance. If that is the case here, then the insurance for each car will cover damages to that car.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
No. The Tesla did not avoid the collision. That is the challenge!
The Tesla did not hit the white car. It was hit from behind only. Despite what the reddit poster claims, the driver of the white car did not cause the accident. The white car stopped to avoid hitting the two cars ahead of it that stopped for unseen reason. The accident with the Tesla was clearly caused by the driver of the car that was following the Tesla too close to stop in time.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Not sure what alternative you were thinking? The Tesla was able to stop in time (AKA they left enough following distance to do so), it was the cars behind that didn't (and by the time they crashed, the car in front was still stationary so Tesla couldn't have accelerated either).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I missed that on the first go given I was watching it just in the preview window. Looking more closely, the title is misleading in suggesting the white car had partial fault, given as you say, there were two other cars in front that stopped. That puts the fault all on the cars behind.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I know, I already pointed that out! It was very clear it was no fault of the white car.
I actually revise this slightly. Following distance was ok, could have been better, but it wasn't the main issue here.
Yeah, they were following at a workable distance, just under 2 seconds, though it is much safer and preferable to be in the just-under-3-second range.
However, the issue here was the incredibly slow reaction of the Tesla driver - they waited over 2 seconds to brake significantly (about 2.5-2.7 seconds) ! You can see the instant of heavy braking based on when the car suddenly angles downwards, and when the distance to the car behind rapidly starts changing.
Brake lights (which were very predictable - other brake lights and veering were visible further ahead at 2 seconds) come on around 2.7 seconds:
Tesla brakes at 5.4 seconds, maybe as early as 5.2 seconds, a little hard to say exactly. But the dive is pretty clear, followed by rapidly closing traffic to the rear.
So there are a few things you can do as alternatives to avoid a collision (or Tesla AP/FSD, which isn't really applicable here, since this reaction time was way too slow for this to be AP/FSD):
1) Increase following distance to 3-4 seconds (more if traffic conditions allow!) if there is reason to believe traffic will be slowing. This greatly increases room to operate. It also allows a better view of what is happening in front of the lead vehicle.
2) Offset lane position from lead vehicle (usually to the left slightly, though to the right is also possible with sufficient following distance). This allows you to see further ahead as well
3) Brake promptly, smoothly, and slowly when you see people in front slowing. This gives time to assess the attention of traffic behind you and allows you to reduce closing speed for traffic to your rear.
4) Watch traffic in the rear, and if they do not appear to be slowing, speed up to use your available buffer (remember your large following distance), and change lanes if possible. You can even flash your hazards, since you have time. When my car was new I avoided a rear end collision this way (though I was stopped at the time, I left a large buffer to the vehicle in front which allowed me to change lanes and avoid the car screeching to a halt in the location I had just vacated).
I do the above all the time when driving in LA or San Diego traffic, where there are frequent slowdowns. I flash my hazards whenever it's clear that traffic is slowing in an "unexpected" manner.
As I said, there are no guarantees for rear-end collisions - but you can try! Slowing down how quickly things happen improves your odds.
The only accident I have had as a driver was my fault. When I was a brand-new driver, I unexpectedly stopped past the stop line for a red light (left turn lane and the yellow was shorter than expected), and was rear-ended. It wasn't technically my fault per insurance, but it was definitely my fault. You have a duty as a driver to prevent people behind you from running into you if possible! Some of the steps above can easily be implemented by any driver, and also by Tesla.
Being hit from behind is often avoidable.
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DanCar
Active Member
I don't recall this crash was discussed in this thread, but posting here anyways.
driveteslacanada.ca
Tesla Autopilot Not Active During Fatal Newport Beach Crash in 2022
Authorities have determined that Autopilot was not active in a fatal accident involving a Tesla Model S Plaid in California last year. On May 12, 2022 the Model S Plaid crashed into construction equipment on […]
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