I am very confident that its not the heat from sun, but the light.
My screen generally has very light yellow border inside the garage and as it comes out of the garage in the morning, it gets super thick yellow.
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Yellow screen? Force Tesla to Replace it!
- Thread starter testhrowaway
- Start date
I am very confident that its not the heat from sun, but the light.
My screen generally has very light yellow border inside the garage and as it comes out of the garage in the morning, it gets super thick yellow.
This whole situation is crazy. I cannot believe Tesla is arguing that the yellowing of a screen after a couple months of ownership is comparable to wearing out tires. They should just cut their losses and tell all affected users they will get a new screen if the UV treatment fails within 8 years. Learn and move on.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
On the contrary, since we’re gathering anecdotal reports, I park almost always in the shade, but in very hot climates. My screen was originally replaced a year ago, and here we are again toward the end of summer and it’s started to visibly yellow again after a whole year of holding strong.
Well I had my screen replaced about 8 months ago. The yellowing has returned. Not sure how I want to play this. I'm at 36k miles in almost 2 years now and have started driving a beater to work so I've cut back on the miles I'm putting on it. I might be able to stretch the warranty until 50k and hope they find a permanent fix. I asked my mobile manager who replaced my screen last time, he said the service center was expected to get the UV machines in 3-5 weeks.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I am sorry but this is not the way you test this. You do accelerated tests with various levels of UV light on samples (ie 100%, 200%, 300% etc) to simulate what happens over a long period but in a short time. Then you build a curve on the results to really understand how much UV light it takes to cause a change.
This would be like saying we gave a car to one of our employees to take home so they could see if the door handles wore out versus using a machine to cycle the door handles every few seconds to simulate 30 years worth of operations in a few weeks.
Thanks for posting. Understand more deeply the risk of accepting as goodwill. Have a further question to everyone about Tesla’s argument of “a normal wear part..”. Such parts (tires, wiper blades, brake pads, etc.) can be acquired and replaced independent of the manufacturer. The screen is an embedded part, which can only be acquired from Tesla, or likewise the UV fix. Wouldn’t this limitation also undermine the definition of a “wearable part?” I ask as a further rebuttal argument against their lawyer.
This is really the only honest and fair solution to customers with defective screens.
Could you also make the argument that no other manufacturer considers their screens a "wearable part" that turns yellow with normal use?
Does your TV turn yellow? Does your cellphone turn yellow?
Heck do other car manufacturers have LCD screens that turn yellow?
Of course not so they should stop with the BS that the display turning yellow is normal wear and tear. Does the Model 3 screen turn yellow?
The model 3 is elon's pride and joy. S and X have had this stupid design flaw forever while the 3 gets a liquid cooled screen? Yet 3 years since the 3 is released and S and X still have the same failing screen
Could the answer be an SPF50 sunscreen lotion applied whenever the car ventures out into the sun? How about regular visits to the dermatologist?So, Tesla says that UV light causes the problem and fixes the problem. Make sense!
I really hope this is a boldfaced lie from the lawyer because he thinks this is what rigorous engineering is made of and sounds impressive. This is not rigorous engineering. This is the type of testing an intern might come up with.
Here are a few quick reasons why this is a ridiculous test:
- Outside temp does not get as hot as the internal temp in a car (even with the ceiling imposed by cabin overheat protection it would consistently get hotter than an average San Francisco bay area day).
- Cars go through a heat/cool cycle from running the AC, turning the car off, running the AC, over and over again. This does not factor that in.
- Is there any sort of UV protection on the glass in the cars? I found this thread (Is the Model X pano roof UV Protected) but it didn't seem super conclusive. If there is some UV protection this doesn't factor that in either.
- Humidity?
- Reflected IR from the roof below the screens?
- Are these screens going through power cycles like they would in customer's car?
- Longevity of the test (aesculus has a good answer about this in post #347).
Basically, just leaving these things outside in a totally uncontrolled environment doesn't test anything or tell the engineers anything useful. If they really knew what caused the issue I would hope they would have a more targeted testing approach that probes the specific variable(s) causing the issue.
If Tesla is just going by meaningless ad-hoc testing and anecdotes, testhrowaway's screen didn't get completely fixed by the UV treatment. That is just as relevant of a data point as any screen on a hot tin roof. Hey, maybe testhrowaway's old screen is up on that roof now...
I assume the logic was "if it is cause by the environment we can weasel out of our obligations to our customers!".
It is worth pointing out that the Tesla's story on the cause of the yellowing has changed over the past month and a half. The initial response given to testhrowaway says it is "due to exposure to temperature, humidity and oxygen over time". That was June 11 2019. Then on July 26th testhrowaway posted a screenshot of an invoice from Tesla (supposedly written by the same lawyer?) that the issue "is a known consequence of sunlight exposure affecting composition/appearance of adhesive components in touchscreen". Now, wildag was given the same sunlight story but with claims that they knew it was the cause of the issue since spring 2019. If they knew that then why not just simply say 'sunlight' this whole time (and yeah, June 11 is still spring - just the very end of it).
Also, am I supposed to believe that they only deduced that the cause was 'sunlight' in spring 2019 but have been developing the UV fix for at least the past six months and stopped replacing screens several months ago? I'm no expert but I probably would have found the root cause before developing a fix.
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Could the answer be an SPF50 sunscreen lotion applied whenever the car ventures out into the sun? How about regular visits to the dermatologist?
The UV protection from the car glass is probably way better than that! If the UV treatment reduces the yellow band, putting the screen outside in the unfiltered sunlight probably actually counteracts whatever causes the yellowing. So it’s a test designed to mislead!
Tesla's stance on this is crazy. A consumable/wearable part (like tires, wiper blades, brakes, etc...) is something that can be replaced by the consumer. The MCU screen cannot be replaced.
Related, does anyone have any idea why the magical fix-machine is in short supply? If it is nothing more than a few strong UV lights, a cover and possibly a vent, that sounds like something anyone could McGyver together in half a day for less than one arbitration session? Why is this thing not full time available at every service center?
Tam
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="wildag, post: 3896131,
Tesla admitted that current screen is susceptible to sunlight. Tesla hopes next generation screen does not have this issue.
During spring 2019 , Tesla determined that the adhesive used to attach components was being affected by sun light, causes yellow band. This caused them to stop covering this issue under warranty. (makes no sense, but that was the argument)
Tesla claimed that this yellow banding wasn’t covered by the warranty - just like tires wear out, this generation of screen wears out. That the cause was simply environmental and not un-reasonable to be expected. (I argued that other wear items are specifically called out as not covered in the warranty, and that there’s no reasonable way a customer could know that a screen would be considered a wear item, or that sun light should be avoided).
Question to attorney: So Tesla expected that this screen would yellow before they installed it in my car?
answer: No
Question: Then how was it to be expected if Tesla itself ,didn't expect it?
answer: umm
Question: You say that the screen is susceptible to sunlight, correct?
answer: yes
Question: Is it reasonable for an automobile manufacturer to expect their product to be exposed to sunlight?
answer: yes
Question: Does Tesla's warranty state that the touch screen is not covered if the car is exposed to sunlight.
answer: No
Question: Does the owners manual state that the car should not be operated in sunlight?
answer: no
Question: Did Tesla apply this adhesive, or did the supplier of the touchscreen apply it, or whom?
answer: ?
Question: Does the supplier of this 17" touchscreen certify it as automotive grade and warranty it for use in automobiles?
answer: ? not likely
Question: Was Tesla covering this issue under warranty at one time, by replacing the screens?
answer: yes
Question: Was the yellowing problem completely resolved with the replacement screens?
answer: no
Tesla said a number of affected screen units had the UV fix applied, and are now sitting on the roof of head quarters exposed to sun light - none have suffered the yellow banding after the UV fix.
Question: Is Tesla sure that the UV fix is a permanent fix?
answer: we believe so
Question: Then you will have no problem guaranteeing that the yellow screen will not return, and that if it does it will be repaired by Tesla, Correct?
answer: no
Statement: When Tesla realized that they have no guarantied fix, at this time, they decided to try and make up excuses, to avoid responsibility for what is manufacturing defect.
Tesla previously was telling customers that the customers will receive only a one time attempted fix as good will, and that no additional fix attempts would be covered. Tesla claims they have now changed that policy, and says customer won’t be charged for future yellowing issues (not clear if it’s under warranty or not).
Tesla admitted that they often change policies, and that it can be confusing for customers or they may have outdated information. (I argued that’s exactly why having this issue covered under warranty is important - so that I’m not subject to their latest whim).
Tesla argued that they have the right to attempt a UV fix repair. I probably unccessfully argued that the UV fix is most likely temporary, as relayed by their own technicians. And that others have reported unsuccessful attempts. Tesla claimed 9 other customers received the UV fix in lieu of arbitration - but provided no argument that the fix would be long lasting (other than the sun light test above).
Tesla claimed that I hadn’t submitted my car for a fix. (That’s absurd, because the whole point of the arbitration was that I’d submitted the car multiple times for fixes over 6+ months, and been rebuffed).
The arbiter provided no feedback other than a few questions. I’ll learn the results in a week or so.[/QUOTE]
Tesla admitted that current screen is susceptible to sunlight. Tesla hopes next generation screen does not have this issue.
During spring 2019 , Tesla determined that the adhesive used to attach components was being affected by sun light, causes yellow band. This caused them to stop covering this issue under warranty. (makes no sense, but that was the argument)
Tesla claimed that this yellow banding wasn’t covered by the warranty - just like tires wear out, this generation of screen wears out. That the cause was simply environmental and not un-reasonable to be expected. (I argued that other wear items are specifically called out as not covered in the warranty, and that there’s no reasonable way a customer could know that a screen would be considered a wear item, or that sun light should be avoided).
Question to attorney: So Tesla expected that this screen would yellow before they installed it in my car?
answer: No
Question: Then how was it to be expected if Tesla itself ,didn't expect it?
answer: umm
Question: You say that the screen is susceptible to sunlight, correct?
answer: yes
Question: Is it reasonable for an automobile manufacturer to expect their product to be exposed to sunlight?
answer: yes
Question: Does Tesla's warranty state that the touch screen is not covered if the car is exposed to sunlight.
answer: No
Question: Does the owners manual state that the car should not be operated in sunlight?
answer: no
Question: Did Tesla apply this adhesive, or did the supplier of the touchscreen apply it, or whom?
answer: ?
Question: Does the supplier of this 17" touchscreen certify it as automotive grade and warranty it for use in automobiles?
answer: ? not likely
Question: Was Tesla covering this issue under warranty at one time, by replacing the screens?
answer: yes
Question: Was the yellowing problem completely resolved with the replacement screens?
answer: no
Tesla said a number of affected screen units had the UV fix applied, and are now sitting on the roof of head quarters exposed to sun light - none have suffered the yellow banding after the UV fix.
Question: Is Tesla sure that the UV fix is a permanent fix?
answer: we believe so
Question: Then you will have no problem guaranteeing that the yellow screen will not return, and that if it does it will be repaired by Tesla, Correct?
answer: no
Statement: When Tesla realized that they have no guarantied fix, at this time, they decided to try and make up excuses, to avoid responsibility for what is manufacturing defect.
Tesla previously was telling customers that the customers will receive only a one time attempted fix as good will, and that no additional fix attempts would be covered. Tesla claims they have now changed that policy, and says customer won’t be charged for future yellowing issues (not clear if it’s under warranty or not).
Tesla admitted that they often change policies, and that it can be confusing for customers or they may have outdated information. (I argued that’s exactly why having this issue covered under warranty is important - so that I’m not subject to their latest whim).
Tesla argued that they have the right to attempt a UV fix repair. I probably unccessfully argued that the UV fix is most likely temporary, as relayed by their own technicians. And that others have reported unsuccessful attempts. Tesla claimed 9 other customers received the UV fix in lieu of arbitration - but provided no argument that the fix would be long lasting (other than the sun light test above).
Tesla claimed that I hadn’t submitted my car for a fix. (That’s absurd, because the whole point of the arbitration was that I’d submitted the car multiple times for fixes over 6+ months, and been rebuffed).
The arbiter provided no feedback other than a few questions. I’ll learn the results in a week or so.[/QUOTE]
