I agree that it probably will turn out that the second seat moving down and almost under will be the solution to the 'folding seat' issue and ELon will say 'other people have folding seats..how archaic, we have sliding 'magic' seats ....However, until I know that, it is difficult to configure and confirm an X in my family.
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I agree that it probably will turn out that the second seat moving down and almost under will be the solution to the 'folding seat' issue and ELon will say 'other people have folding seats..how archaic, we have sliding 'magic' seats ....However, until I know that, it is difficult to configure and confirm an X in my family.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
That I can respect and I understand it's annoying for those few invited to configure to not have a clear answer, or a demonstration car to go look at in a store.
I agree: no focus groups, ran out of time.
I'm concerned that we will be seeing more than 25% cancellation or deferral. Once all the details have been revealed (Sept 29th?), that's when most will cancel or defer. I get the feeling that a lot of people are in a holding pattern until they get confirmation on the specs. I also suspect that a lot of early Signature customers that have been asked to confirm have decided to defer until more information is available. This would explain why Sig #171 has been granted access to Design Studio, considering that I would expect only about 50 or so Sigs to be delivered in the 2nd batch (after Founders) since I don't expect the ramp up to be that high right away.
If the above assessment is correct, I would predict Elon to be making some new announcements around Sept 29th with regards to new options being available.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I don't understand the "ran out of time" comments. They had a fully functional and working prototype for 4 years. How much time do you need to put that into production?
I cannot think of a reason why Tesla would not include fold flat 2nd row seats, something IMO is so easy to implement and apparently seems like a deal breaker for many. This after they have informed many reservation holders that the 2nd row would fold flat. No one asked them this question and Tesla had no reason to bring to attention that the 2nd row will fold flat unless they were sure it was doable. My guess is since they have said folding seats will be available, Tesla will do all it can to make them available. We will find out soon enough.
One possible reason they may not be available could be the flat battery layout. ICE CUVs don't have much under the 2nd row bucket seats. The driveshaft for RWD, other cables and fluid lines for FWD CUVs are in the middle, between the seats. Fold-able 2nd row seats may need space under the floor to implement.
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It is possible that Tesla had to chose between beautiful and comfortable 2nd row seats that do not fold flat vs meh 2nd row seats that do fold flat. It is an easy decision to make if 98% of the trips call for the second row to be up and the other 2% of the trips need them down.
Part of me wonders if they had gone with normal doors and normal seats, the X would not only be cheaper to develop/engineer/build but also cost less and be available months ago, not to mention faster ramp up, faster assembly and potential customers not worrying if it will fit in low ceiling garages and parking lots.
One possible reason they may not be available could be the flat battery layout. ICE CUVs don't have much under the 2nd row bucket seats. The driveshaft for RWD, other cables and fluid lines for FWD CUVs are in the middle, between the seats. Fold-able 2nd row seats may need space under the floor to implement.
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It is possible that Tesla had to chose between beautiful and comfortable 2nd row seats that do not fold flat vs meh 2nd row seats that do fold flat. It is an easy decision to make if 98% of the trips call for the second row to be up and the other 2% of the trips need them down.
Part of me wonders if they had gone with normal doors and normal seats, the X would not only be cheaper to develop/engineer/build but also cost less and be available months ago, not to mention faster ramp up, faster assembly and potential customers not worrying if it will fit in low ceiling garages and parking lots.
Just because they had a prototype, doesn't mean that they had a fully functional and fully designed solution. For example, the prototype probably wouldn't have had great range or could pass the highest safety standards.
They've spent the last 4 years properly designing and building the Model-X.
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I think it's not even that people want... just the ability for the backs to hinge down onto the seat bases. Even if it was slightly "inclined" like the Model S rear seat folding, people wouldn't really have a problem. I can't see the battery / floor pan having any impact on this ability.
As many of us are now speculating, seatbelt mounting is far more likely the problem. If it is the case this could be difficult one to solve even for the production cars
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I think they took a break from the X for a while as they ramped up on the S (I think it took them by surprise and they needed more resources to keep things rolling as smoothly as possible). I do remember a comment from Elon last year along the lines of "we could launch it earlier, but we want to do it right". I suspect Tesla is working right up to the finish line on the X.
They did, but there will always be someone who will say something like "well it IS better! look at those sculpted things of beauty! It's better to ME!". At this point, I guess all we can do is wait for official confirmation, and then folks can decide what to do from there.
Someone posted that they spoke to a Tesla employee who indicated that Tesla was moving seat manufacturing internally. If they had some issues with one of their seat suppliers, that could have significantly delayed the lower-entry, foldable seats.
Runarbt
Active Member
Of course the second row will be able to turn flat. Anything else would be stupid.. and one thing Elon is NOT, is stupid.
The seats doesnt have to fold to become flat..
Elon also states everything will be better on a production car, and "everything" does include internal space.
Can't show a car with lots of space, and then make a production car which only have 2/3 of this space. Thats not how Tesla does it.
Lets just wait and see, and I bet the seats will amaze us all.:love:
The seats doesnt have to fold to become flat..
Elon also states everything will be better on a production car, and "everything" does include internal space.
Can't show a car with lots of space, and then make a production car which only have 2/3 of this space. Thats not how Tesla does it.
Lets just wait and see, and I bet the seats will amaze us all.:love:
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I heard that the second row is made up of millions of nanobots that disassociate and flow into a flat floor with a button push. </sarcasm>
I think we are forgetting how much emphasis they put in easy access to the third row. The "spooning" theory dovetails into that requirement very nicely. You open the door, push a button and the outboard seat near you spoons forward and down allowing you very easy walk in access to the back row. The oval carpet cutout shows how surprisingly far the seat moves forward. So there is a pivot point at the seat bottom and under the floor, and a front/back sliding mechanism. You basically need all these parts anyway for normal comfort adjustment. The carpet cutout is sufficient to show that there is significant mechanism in the floor, so I think there are no batteries in that area of the skateboard. There are motors and mechanisms. The front seats and the center console are cantilevered as someone else said. This matches the "work of art" narrative as well. That would all be very impressive.
But, it doesn't leave a flat floor and it takes away some of the cargo length. Not saying I like any of this, but I think this theory fits the available evidence best.
I will just leave you with this photo of me hauling an Ikea couch in my model S:
I think we are forgetting how much emphasis they put in easy access to the third row. The "spooning" theory dovetails into that requirement very nicely. You open the door, push a button and the outboard seat near you spoons forward and down allowing you very easy walk in access to the back row. The oval carpet cutout shows how surprisingly far the seat moves forward. So there is a pivot point at the seat bottom and under the floor, and a front/back sliding mechanism. You basically need all these parts anyway for normal comfort adjustment. The carpet cutout is sufficient to show that there is significant mechanism in the floor, so I think there are no batteries in that area of the skateboard. There are motors and mechanisms. The front seats and the center console are cantilevered as someone else said. This matches the "work of art" narrative as well. That would all be very impressive.
But, it doesn't leave a flat floor and it takes away some of the cargo length. Not saying I like any of this, but I think this theory fits the available evidence best.
I will just leave you with this photo of me hauling an Ikea couch in my model S:
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
Here's the thing.
Tesla REALLY wants to surprise us.
So let's assume for a moment (because we are all huge fans), that it will be a good surprise.
So somehow, magically, they find a way for the 2nd row seats not to have to fold and still have so much space in the car that it will be OK for those of us who need more room.
I for one am willing to suspend disbelieve. Because hey, when they announced the Model S I didn't believe that would happen, either
Because I really really WANT this to be a car that I can buy and that does what I need it to do.
So let's stop the speculations for 18 days and continue this thread after the launch.
(... and the internet implodes in 3...2...1....)
Tesla REALLY wants to surprise us.
So let's assume for a moment (because we are all huge fans), that it will be a good surprise.
So somehow, magically, they find a way for the 2nd row seats not to have to fold and still have so much space in the car that it will be OK for those of us who need more room.
I for one am willing to suspend disbelieve. Because hey, when they announced the Model S I didn't believe that would happen, either
Because I really really WANT this to be a car that I can buy and that does what I need it to do.
So let's stop the speculations for 18 days and continue this thread after the launch.
(... and the internet implodes in 3...2...1....)
If the seats don't fold down, then the trunk will have less than 1/2 the space.... I can't put half a bike on each side of the second row, nor do I want the seats getting dirty by putting stuff on top. And the $10K+ racing bike does not go outside on the trailer hitch rack when it is raining (wheel, pulley, and bottom bracket bearings are not getting exposed to wet road grime at 70mph).
Mark Z
Active Member
I would agree. Safety and comfort may trump cargo dimensions. IMHO, huge cargo dimensions could be mentioned with an asterisk.@Johan, no doubt "better" will be spun
These new fixed seats will make you feel like you are in a set of Sparco fixed racing buckets.. ready to experience the massive acceleration in the Model X.
Expanded cargo dimensions: 11'7" x 6' x 5'5" (LxWxH).*
*When U-Haul: 6x12 Cargo Trailer Rental is attached with optional Tow Package.
(Note: U-Haul has not yet placed Tesla on their vehicle list to show recommended trailer sizes. The above dimensions may change.)
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*shrugs* You say that as if it's a crime for someone to dare like the seats they came up with, if they don't fold. In my case, I do indeed like the pedestal-based seats better than seats that prohibit storage beneath, like nearly every other folding seat placed in every other car to date. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers - it's not a "sculpted things of beauty" thing, it's a practicality thing for my family.
Yes, 24 months ago, during the design phase, Tesla showed a mock-up at the introduction of its concept for Model X. I don't get the attitude that things are not permitted to change, and that if it was said, then it must be offered, spare no expense - but it must be done on time because they promised they would ship by end of Q3.
So we both agree that those who are so passionate about the second row folding can decide what to do when they have more information.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
It seems that the email from 15 months ago also still talked about the folding second row, no? I think the point is that many of us made the reservation assuming that the second row seats would fold. Or somehow get out of the way. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.
I for one agree that things can change. Hopefully for the better. But I think we can all agree that this is a departure from what Tesla has led us to believe as late as middle of last year.
The discussion above was re: Elon stating that Tesla will deliver something that is better than the prototype. Yes, for some people who may not need the folding, a change of "no folding, but sexy" may be good (or if not good, just not a big deal). But for many who were drawn in by that particular feature, it wouldn't be a good change and the delivered product is now less than what was originally shown off.
Removing features that were important enough to warrant their own slide and mention in a subsequent email years later is not my definition of "better". For some things, like the camera mirrors (which I think most people expected to be gone, and even Elon mentioned they hinged on regulatory approval), it's understandable. Something like no folding seats, IMO, is not.
For the record, as long as the second seats move up enough that I have as much, if not more, storage than I do in the S, I'm OK with no folding (as-is my wife, who notes the seats will usually have car seats latched in anyway), but if it comes to pass that there will be no folding option at all, then I do consider it an overall fail.
Agreed, though I'd just stick in that we still don't know that the second row will never fold. From my talks with various folks, it doesn't seem the individually-moving second row seats in the sig will fold flat, but that doesn't preclude an option later on in general production that WILL fold flat. It could just be that it's going to take time and until then, Tesla will prioritize vehicles with non-folding second-row seats.
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