What wasn't said.

[nwdiver]

I think they will charge a flat $2K for SC access with the base battery and include it free with the upgraded battery. Simple. And it matches the model they used for the 60 and 85 Model S.

Yes... but it won't be itemized... or optional Tesla seems to have migrated away from optional supercharging...

 

[MrBoylan]

I think you're all overthinking this. Supercharging as 'standard' means each car will be part of the network, for free. Elon has stated in the past that every Tesla will charge free for long distance travel. It's not changing. What is great though, about his wording, is that it's clear there is no fee for supercharging hardware.

Free for long-distance travel. Standard for all cars.

I'm not following. Or maybe I am. But it sounds like you're saying you think it will be free access to the Supercharger network for long distance travel for all cars, including the base Model 3. Is that right? Because that's exactly what the PR folks just told me hadn't been announced yet:

"All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free."

Tesla also just changed the graphic on the Model 3 page (about an hour or two ago) from: "Supercharging - long distance travel" to: "Supercharging Capable"

So it seems like they are trying to keep open the option of charging a fee to enable "free" supercharger access for the base Model 3. I'd bet even they haven't decided what they're doing about that yet and will only announce the details closer to production. Those who ordered a Model S 60 kWH battery early were told shortly before the cars were being built that there would be a $2,000 charge to include Supercharger access (though I believe early orderers were offered it for a discounted price of $1,000).

 

[wbrumfiel]

I'm not really even sure if I want supercharging as I don't think I would use it that much so having it 'capable' with a pay per use would probably be the best option for me, other than of course it just being 'free'.

 

[Saghost]

A few interesting things that weren't said:

1. Elon said that supercharging is standard. But he never said that it would be free. As-in, the door is open for some sort of pay-per-use system. This makes sense, because when the cars get less expensive, I can see it attracting more people who will look at the SCs as a way to save money on power at home, rather than as a means for doing long distance travel.

2. Same with AP. He said, specifically, that the AP hardware is standard. He did not say that there would not be an optional cost to turn it on. I suspect this is a bit of "keeping the options open".

1. I'm with Bonnie on this. I think it's pretty clear that Elon/Tesla have made a strategic decision that free Supercharging is going to be a Tesla competitive advantage that's included on all cars for no additional charge. There's no way Elon would make a point of it being standard on all model 3s in a direct statement now if they hadn't made a decision - they could have found plenty of other things to talk about instead.

2. I think you're right here. The explicit separation of Autopilot Hardware/Safety features clearly indicates to me that they'll keep the status quo here - you pay extra for the automation but not for the hardware or the safety features.
Walter

 

[Darryl]

@JanoSicek is right Elon Musk was careful to say the HARDWARE for autopilot would be in each car, he repeated HARDWARE twice. This is true with the Model X also but there is a cost to have Autopilot FUNCTIONING. This will also be true for the Model X.

This is why Supercharging also refers to Supercharging capable.

Elon chose the words he used for a purpose as to not commit the company to something he did not intend.

The other thing he made clear is the Supercharging network is for LONG DISTANT TRAVEL. As he has said in public many times, people will be expected to charge at home for their normal day-to-day commute needs. Many people who have been using the Supercharging Network for local travel have been getting warnings from Tesla saying this is not what the Supercharging Network is for.

Most individuals who own their own homes are paying an average of $1,200 - $1800 and more in some cases to have their homes ready for charging. Some condo are already starting to prepare and other condo owners will need to get with their association and start working on a plan for charging within condo developments. Those who live in apartment buildings will need to work with the owners of the apartment building regarding future needs for electric charging and before renting a new apartment you make sure they offer this capability. You need to start working on this now and not wait until you own an electric car and don't have a place to charge it.

The infrastructure required to support the Supercharging network is NOT a trivial cost. It is not just the electricity but having to purchase and pay taxes on the property, putting in the facilities, and the purchase and ongoing maintenance of charging equipment in addition to the maintenance and the cost of electricity.

Many and probably most cars sold in two years will have active avoidance safety features. This is the part of the autopilot safety features he referred to.

 

[gregincal]

1. I'm with Bonnie on this. I think it's pretty clear that Elon/Tesla have made a strategic decision that free Supercharging is going to be a Tesla competitive advantage that's included on all cars for no additional charge. There's no way Elon would make a point of it being standard on all model 3s in a direct statement now if they hadn't made a decision - they could have found plenty of other things to talk about instead.

Then why did Tesla PR explicitly specify that they promised no such thing and updated the website to say as such? They may still be intending to make it free, but they are definitely not committing to it.

 

[MrBoylan]

Then why did Tesla PR explicitly specify that they promised no such thing and updated the website to say as such? They may still be intending to make it free, but they are definitely not committing to it.

Yup. I think there are probably still internal discussions on it. I also think Elon will win.

 

[smak]

Maybe they'll separate the superchargers by whether they are "long distance" or local and charging would be different based on which type you are at.

I can think of a few superchargers around here that I would consider local, and not long distance.

-smak-

 

[nwdiver]

I'm not really even sure if I want supercharging as I don't think I would use it that much so having it 'capable' with a pay per use would probably be the best option for me, other than of course it just being 'free'.

Unfortunately it would be nearly impossible to raise the funds required for the network under a pay per use scheme... $2k/car seems to be working well though.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Unfortunately it would be nearly impossible to raise the funds required for the network under a pay per use scheme... $2k/car seems to be working well though.

Let's be clear, the $2000 per car only applied to 60kWh. Supercharging is now included in Model S price. Also, Tesla only set aside $500 per vehicle to pay for electricity/maintenance according to 2013/2014 sec filings. The money for the network comes from their marketing budget.

Pay per use would be a way to pay for electricity/maintenance. Rather than $500 flat rate (or whatever it is now, Tesla didn't report any longer in 2015), it would be based on usage.

However, personally, I am not in favor of pay per use for the long distance stations. I think keeping the "free long distance" message is a big advantage. I am in favor however of pay per use in urban stations (particularly those for people without home charging). There are only a few areas that have drastically high demand, while most stations are sustainable with a smaller per vehicle cut.

 

[nwdiver]

Let's be clear, the $2000 per car only applied to 60kWh. Supercharging is now included in Model S price.

Right... wasn't claiming it was itemized, visible or optional.. just that ~$2k from every sale was put toward the SC network. That's one of the key components the other OEMs are missing. Nissan had no desire to invest that much into a charging network. They've helped fund other car charging groups but never to the extent Tesla has and never assumed ownership like Tesla has.

IMO the OEMs want car charging to work the same way gas stations do... they build the cars and someone else takes care of the fuel. That model doesn't work for EVs.

 

[Bighorn]

Supercharger capable implies not enabled, in my mind. The decision may not yet be made, but free is by no means implicit. If it were so, it would have been accompanied with the appropriate fanfare at the reveal.

 

[jerry33]

Then why did Tesla PR explicitly specify that they promised no such thing and updated the website to say as such? They may still be intending to make it free, but they are definitely not committing to it.

I've heard your job at Tesla depends upon not saying something before Elon announces it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

IMO the OEMs want car charging to work the same way gas stations do... they build the cars and someone else takes care of the fuel. That model doesn't work for EVs.

It is working well in Europe and Japan. Not really that well in the USA, but the third party DC charging networks are slowly growing.

However, that is not really the model I think is being discussed here. Rather it is that Tesla continues to take a cut from every vehicle as always, but on top of that also charge usage fees (which can be adjusted/waived to favor "long distance" as the network was originally intended). I don't see how it is possible for that to be less financially viable than what they are doing now.

 

[mcghee33]

I truly believe that Elon wants SC to be free for all owners. It is a KEY feature to the Tesla ecosystem. Now that they have $200m in bank via reservations and counting with $7.5b in pending sales I don't think that cost is the issue. I wonder if the issue is really going to be overloading the SC system, and running into wait times at SC stations. So the only reason I would see them charging for use would be to limit people, mainly local, from using the SC's near their house to charge for free.
That is where I see them maybe charging you to use stations in your local while allowing you to travel away from home for free. This even seems farfetched to me tho because they would take a huge marketing hit if they start charging to use SCs because for those who are on the fence about EVs Tesla does not need to add a deterrent like having to pay for SC use. I am already getting into arguments with people about whether EVs are practical for travel and 1 of them is a current 90D MS owner who doesn't think they are practical for travel and that is why they haven't purchased and X to replace their minivan.

 

[Garlan Garner]

They also didn't say when mine will arrive.

 

[nwdiver]

It is working well in Europe and Japan. Not really that well in the USA, but the third party DC charging networks are slowly growing.

However, that is not really the model I think is being discussed here. Rather it is that Tesla continues to take a cut from every vehicle as always, but on top of that also charge usage fees (which can be adjusted/waived to favor "long distance" as the network was originally intended). I don't see how it is possible for that to be less financially viable than what they are doing now.

I don't know how they're funding the charging network in Europe but the numbers don't seem to support the viability of pay per use funded fast charging. I think diverting $2k from the sale of every vehicle should be more than sufficient to maintain and expand the network if it's only used for travel. I agree we need a solution for EV owners that don't have L2 curb-side charging but the long-term solution to that problem is making L2 curb-side charging available... not a massive expansion of L3.

 

[TaoJones]

Gee. Yet more people who don't use SCs trying so hard to find ways to charge people who do or might. Two years from now, no less. That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Shifting to the big picture, think of things from a production perspective. Much easier to build a car with the sensors and other hardware and to then enable functionality via software. Are there caveats? Sure - some hardware is more expensive than others.

Potential scenario:
Here's a car. Want SC access? $2500 please. Want AP convenience features? $2500 please. Want dual charging? $2000 please. Want them all enabled on Day 1? Great. $5000 please. Win Win.

This doesn't have to be hard.

Under no circumstances is some hinky pay per use nightmare even remotely necessary for SC usage. Not now, not in 2 years, not even in 5 years and maybe not even in 10. It was Straubel I believe who was quoted as saying that at a million vehicles they'd have to have another look at the business model. We are a long way from a million Teslas. No handwringing or schemes to nickel and dime owners needed in the meantime.

 

[Red Sage]

God.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't know how they're funding the charging network in Europe but the numbers don't seem to support the viability of pay per use funded fast charging.

I am referring to the third party stations. They have 3000+ CHAdeMO stations and 2000+ CCS stations in Europe. In Japan, they have close to 6000. In the USA there are 1600+ CHAdeMO stations, but only a few hundred CCS.

I think diverting $2k from the sale of every vehicle should be more than sufficient to maintain and expand the network if it's only used for travel.

I agree with this point, but the problem is that it is not only used for long distance travel. Pay per use for urban stations can be one way of handling that extra demand.

I agree we need a solution for EV owners that don't have L2 curb-side charging but the long-term solution to that problem is making L2 curb-side charging available... not a massive expansion of L3

I agree on this point also, but clearly development in L2 curbside charging isn't moving anywhere fast enough for Tesla's tastes, which is why they installed supercharger stations in some cities for people that fit under this category.