Upgrade for 90 limited "A Packs" : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WWSS TM

[dsm363]

Upgrade for 90 limited "A Packs" : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WW...

How long do you think is reasonable to wait for this option and for the BPO? My car is over 16% into its battery warranty.

When they make it available I guess. This would be separate from the battery pack replacement option and only for people who are upset enough about the slower charging that they are willing to pay for the difference between a brand new pack and their old one.

 

[dsm363]

Upgrade for 90 limited "A Packs" : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WW...

I believe you are correct about this. IIRC, Elon himself never said "every car on the road will charge at 120 kW, PERIOD." He beat around the bush in his public appearances in which he hinted at 120 kW a number of times without mentioning any caveats, therefore giving many of us false hope. That's the big problem I have with what Elon has said. It's misleading at the least.

However, that's not to say that Tesla corporate is off the hook. Ownership made this claim to a 90-kW limited owner before 5.x was released:



Here, TM states that this is purely a firmware driven change requiring no additional hardware on the car side. We now know this not to be the case.

What you quote even says "speculation and not fact at this time". I agree what Elon said was inaccurate and could be considered misleading by some. This assumes of course he knew there was no way A packs could take advantage of 120kW charging but said it anyway. Things changed somehow and they are no longer able to keep that promise however you interpret it.

 

[apacheguy]

What you quote even says "speculation and not fact at this time".

Speculation was in regards to a 30% increase in speed, not the fact that all cars would be receiving the firmware update.

I was just thinking about this and what it is that really ticks me off. The fact of the matter is Tesla is not just another car company. I hold them in much higher regard and believe they need to reciprocate trust to customers who gave them an interest free $40 K with no guarantee that the car would see the light of day. Repeatedly marketing and hyping up 120 kW supercharging as something that will be "fully rolled out to customers" and then having that not be the case is a HUGE no-no in my book. Did they break a contract? No. Did they lose my faith and trust? Absolutely. And that's the saddest part about this whole screw up.

 

[brianman]

When they make it available I guess. This would be separate from the battery pack replacement option and only for people who are upset enough about the slower charging that they are willing to pay for the difference between a brand new pack and their old one.

Ok, let's start simple. Do you think it's reasonable to wait until 2020 for delivery of the BPO and upgrade cost without BPO?

Sidenote: Apparently I fail acronyms today. BRO (Battery Replacement Option) not BPO (Battery Pack? Option).

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What you quote even says "speculation and not fact at this time". I agree what Elon said was in accurate and could be considered misleading by some. This assumes of course he knew there was no way A packs could take advantage of 120kW charging but said it anyway. Things changed somehow and they are no longer able to keep that promise however you interpret it.

And where has this been officially acknowledged? Nowhere on the teslamotors.com Supercharging page does it say anything about it. I'm fairly confident when they roll out 135 kW supercharging they probably won't have the asterisk then either. Trust erosion is self-inflicted.

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Did they lose my faith and trust? Absolutely. And that's the saddest part about this whole screw up.

Indeed.

 

[Kraken]

I believe you are correct about this. IIRC, Elon himself never said "every car on the road will charge at 120 kW, PERIOD." He beat around the bush in his public appearances in which he hinted at 120 kW a number of times without mentioning any caveats, therefore giving many of us false hope. That's the big problem I have with what Elon has said. It's misleading at the least.

However, that's not to say that Tesla corporate is off the hook. Ownership made this claim to a 90-kW limited owner before 5.x was released:



Here, TM states that this is purely a firmware driven change requiring no additional hardware on the car side. We now know this not to be the case.

You have a very interesting way of interpreting things sometimes to just what you want to hear.

How do you take "this upgrade will LIKELY come in form of a firmware upgrade" and hear "this is PURELY a firmware driven change"... I'm baffled.

clearly the issue here is communication. His isn't a rare issue, but what is going on is the standard issue that the frontline reps aren't engineers. They are relaying a message that they were never trained to fully understand the details of. This is an issue with all tech companies. The engineers have more pressing issues to worry about and aren't always the best at communicating from technical jargon to understandable laymans terms. That seems to be all that happened here.

 

[apacheguy]

@Kraken - We could argue all day about how to interpret TM's statements. There are a number of other statements, IMO, that are much less vague than the one I posted, including the official press release, that support my point of view. Obviously we will continue to disagree on how to parse these statements so I suggest that we agree to disagree.

The bigger issue here is that TM is disrespecting a loyal fan base and that is an issue many are overlooking.

 

[dsm363]

They should simply hire the guy from Office Space whose job was to take the specs from the engineers and give them to customers in a way they could understand. You know, a people person.

 

[NoMoGas]

I have an A pack and I'm fine with it. Literally a few minutes more worst case, no change in time if the supercharger is busy? Not worth worrying about.

Stop being reasonable. People MUST find a reason to complain, or assume that Tesla will screw us over somewhere. It's not their fault, they've been conditioned by GM, Toyota et al for decades... but it is getting old.

 

[Plug Me In]

My theory is the "A" packs will be replaced in about a year - with "C" packs. Then we can have threads about people with B packs wanting to get theirs upgraded.

 

[tomas]

Geez, I'm so sad to see the same earth being turned over again and again.

28 of us got together and communicated with Jerome directly. That's why the original thread on this quieted down. That moved Tesla's position from "tough luck" to "battery upgrade program when we get past constrained battery production". The Jerome email that JoeFee (OP) posted has to be taken in context of all of the other correspondence on this topic with Jerome. It is consistent, not obfuscation. Anyone want details, PM me your email address.

Fact is, battery production will be constrained for many quarters if not years. "A" owners who are chomping at bit may be disappointed. Personally, I'll be very happy to upgrade to 2016 technology (more than 85 kWh, faster than 120 kW, better price/performance), assuming economic deal is "fair". Nice mid-life boost for my car.

I know some of you don't trust anything Tesla says, but I do trust that they will follow through on this. I'm also not expecting it soon.

For those of you who are throwing this in with lighted vanity mirrors and music storage, it just ain't the same thing. Those are features that some people desire, but Nobody got. You can get excited that you think they were promised, but we're all in same boat. The battery is the most expensive and critical component in the car, and some of us got a less functional part than others whose cars were produced the same week, despite the fact that neither of us knew, and we both paid the same price. Anyone doesn't understand the difference, PM me.

PS, I don't blame Tesla. I don't want them to stop improving the car. Ever. I also trust them to make good on this. I know some of you will say I'm stupid for that, but I'm not going to spend months twisting on this… they've told us they'll do it and to be patient, so it's just not worth the angst. Carping on the forum is not going to make it better or faster.

 

[dirkhh]

Personally, I'll be very happy to upgrade to 2016 technology (more than 85 kWh, faster than 120 kW, better price/performance), assuming economic deal is "fair". Nice mid-life boost for my car.

Actually, I have been cursing myself from time to time for not getting an 85 (for example on my 1500 mile trip down I5 last week). So far I have always amused myself with thinking that in 3-4 years (mid life of my expected 8-10 ownership of my Model S) I would upgrade to a brand new 85kWh (or maybe hundred-something kWh) battery. Which seemed like a brilliant way to make sure I don't run into range / battery age issues at the tail end of my expected ownership of the car.
Interesting to notice that you see a very comparable solution for people with 'A' packs...

 

[dsm363]

Thanks tomas. Well said.

 

[rlang59]

Geez, I'm so sad to see the same earth being turned over again and again.

28 of us got together and communicated with Jerome directly. That's why the original thread on this quieted down. That moved Tesla's position from "tough luck" to "battery upgrade program when we get past constrained battery production". The Jerome email that JoeFee (OP) posted has to be taken in context of all of the other correspondence on this topic with Jerome. It is consistent, not obfuscation. Anyone want details, PM me your email address.

Fact is, battery production will be constrained for many quarters if not years. "A" owners who are chomping at bit may be disappointed. Personally, I'll be very happy to upgrade to 2016 technology (more than 85 kWh, faster than 120 kW, better price/performance), assuming economic deal is "fair". Nice mid-life boost for my car.

I know some of you don't trust anything Tesla says, but I do trust that they will follow through on this. I'm also not expecting it soon.

For those of you who are throwing this in with lighted vanity mirrors and music storage, it just ain't the same thing. Those are features that some people desire, but Nobody got. You can get excited that you think they were promised, but we're all in same boat. The battery is the most expensive and critical component in the car, and some of us got a less functional part than others whose cars were produced the same week, despite the fact that neither of us knew, and we both paid the same price. Anyone doesn't understand the difference, PM me.

PS, I don't blame Tesla. I don't want them to stop improving the car. Ever. I also trust them to make good on this. I know some of you will say I'm stupid for that, but I'm not going to spend months twisting on this… they've told us they'll do it and to be patient, so it's just not worth the angst. Carping on the forum is not going to make it better or faster.

I would hope that whatever upgrade path they come up with is offered to all owners.

 

[tomas]

I would hope that whatever upgrade path they come up with is offered to all owners.

I'm pretty sure it will be, but also hopeful "a" owners will get a fair accommodation in the pricing.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

Well, it is somewhat news that Jerome is holding himself to "several months." This means that if we get to 2015 and there is no offer of upgrades, Tesla will be in bad faith on this point. Respectfully...

I see no possible argument for "bad faith" here. They sold someone a car with an "A" battery, which was the best/only pack they had available at the time. They later developed "B" packs and put those in other cars, and the "B" packs are better. But the "A" packs still do everything they promised to do when they sold you the car, so they have not failed to deliver on any promise. They have never promised to retrofit ALL upgrades to ALL cars. The fact that there is now a newer, better product available is simply a reason for you to consider buying a new and improved version, but it does not -- most emphatically does not -- imply that Tesla did anything wrong nor that they are in any way obligated to supply upgraded battery packs to owners of "A" pack vehicles.

On the other hand, I do believe it makes sense for them to offer replacement packs (with a trade-in value for the old one) as soon as battery-production capacity is not constraining vehicle production. I further believe that it would be great customer service, and would uphold a high standard of ethics and conduct, if they offer special pricing on said replacements to "A" pack owners. I think there is certainly a reason for Tesla to do this, and to be especially nice to early adopters when doing so. What I don't believe is that there's a valid allegation of "bad faith" in this process.

 

[mknox]

I wonder if there is any as yet undiscovered disadvantage to the later packs? Maybe there is some compromise we don't know about that is required to enable the faster Supercharging? Just sayin'

 

[apacheguy]

I see no possible argument for "bad faith" here. They sold someone a car with an "A" battery, which was the best/only pack they had available at the time.

Actually, there are hundreds (thousands?) of late production vehicles that shipped with A packs despite better tech being available.

 

[Vger]

I see no possible argument for "bad faith" here. They sold someone a car with an "A" battery, which was the best/only pack they had available at the time. They later developed "B" packs and put those in other cars, and the "B" packs are better. But the "A" packs still do everything they promised to do when they sold you the car, so they have not failed to deliver on any promise. They have never promised to retrofit ALL upgrades to ALL cars. The fact that there is now a newer, better product available is simply a reason for you to consider buying a new and improved version, but it does not -- most emphatically does not -- imply that Tesla did anything wrong nor that they are in any way obligated to supply upgraded battery packs to owners of "A" pack vehicles.

On the other hand, I do believe it makes sense for them to offer replacement packs (with a trade-in value for the old one) as soon as battery-production capacity is not constraining vehicle production. I further believe that it would be great customer service, and would uphold a high standard of ethics and conduct, if they offer special pricing on said replacements to "A" pack owners. I think there is certainly a reason for Tesla to do this, and to be especially nice to early adopters when doing so. What I don't believe is that there's a valid allegation of "bad faith" in this process.

You mistake my meaning. I am not saying that Tesla is in bad faith about the whole issue, though that case can be made and others have made it.

I am only saying that Tesla has now opened the door to the possibility of offering an upgrade plan, under some "business case" (read price), after "several months" when battery production constraints are lifted. So I am claiming that they would be in bad faith if and only if many more months than "several" pass without the kind of solution you yourself suggest in your second paragraph being offered.

 

[dsm363]

Upgrade for 90 limited "A Packs" : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WW...

Actually, there are hundreds (thousands?) of late production vehicles that shipped with A packs despite better tech being available.

It would have been a multi million dollar write off to just junk those packs unless someone would have bought them for grid storage or Tesla could use them in their Superchargers. If not, they had to use them and we know their production line isn't always linear so some crossover was bound to happen. I don't think there were thousands of A packs after B from what I've seen on TMC.

 

[Chris]

... I don't think there were thousands of A packs after B from what I've seen on TMC.

I don't have the exact number of A packs delivered but I am P01895 and have an A pack. The original pack was actually replaced due to an impedance issue but only with a refurb A pack.