[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[krisg81]

I take it you've never bought a Sony VAIO laptop? They obsolete things faster than you can refresh the web page.

Nope! I always thought they were a bit overpriced for a PC-based laptop. At least my iPhone doesn't change every other month and I get annual upgrades for them! Imagine if there were hardware changes on the iPhone every couple of months.. that would be bad, and get old fast. I am starting to feel like the Model S is the worlds most expensive smart phone that is also used for transportation.. except its more like Android with new models and features coming out every other week that obsoletes the previous versions. Just wait until Autopilot 2.0 sensors are announced, once everyone realizes the limitations of the Autopilot 1.0 sensors that are not capable of city based autonomous driving.

At first I liked the constant changes and improvements with the Model S.. now I am realizing the constant changes piss me off. At least with other car manufacturers significant changes are made to each model year, and those updates and changes are known 1-2 years before the actual release in car shows, magazines, etc. so you know if you should wait or not for the next model. This crap where they drop changes on you the same day and leave people like new S60 buyers out in the cold is bad and unethical IMO. That's a whole other topic i'd rather not get into on this thread.

 

[KyP85D]

The certificate of origin states 738 H.P. (SAE)

 

[brianman]

Just wait until Autopilot 2.0 sensors are announced, once everyone realizes the limitations of the Autopilot 1.0 sensors that are not capable of city based autonomous driving.

You might recall, I mentioned this a few weeks ago when I first heard Elon say the current suite was insufficient.

 

[thegruf]

At first I liked the constant changes and improvements with the Model S.. now I am realizing the constant changes piss me off. At least with other car manufacturers significant changes are made to each model year, and those updates and changes are known 1-2 years before the actual release in car shows, magazines, etc. so you know if you should wait or not for the next model. This crap where they drop changes on you the same day and leave people like new S60 buyers out in the cold is bad and unethical IMO. That's a whole other topic i'd rather not get into on this thread.

Unethical maybe a bit strong imho, but I am trying to buy one of these damnn things and every time I look, something has changed, sometimes for better, sometimes for the worse.

There is very good reason other automotive manufacturers work the way they do with yearly updates. Whilst it is understandable as a young manufacturer that Tesla are scrambling to go with the market, Elon making a statement in Feb - no significant changes, then within 3 months totally rejigging the range, really discredits the entire operation.

In my personal case, this purchase is a strategic decision for me, and I will take every care I can to make the right call on model/spec, but it is more like a fairground duck shoot at the moment.

More generally, Tesla must learn quickly that their success in 5 years time will be largely determined by us as current owners. If Tesla owners are all running around at that time with heavily depreciated cars, nobody will buy new as they will see the crippling ownership cost.

imho Tesla must look ahead and work strategically to preserve the value of these cars with careful model evolution ideally based around calendar years, which in turn will become the strongest selling point for future owners.

As a side point the insurance industry cant keep up either - no insurer I have spoken to has any idea about the current line up - doh.

- - - Updated - - -

You might recall, I mentioned this a few weeks ago when I first heard Elon say the current suite was insufficient.

uh oh - more changes afoot

 

[brianman]

If Tesla owners are all running around at that time with worthless cars, nobody will buy new as they will see the crippling ownership cost.

"Worthless" is the word you'd use? Really?

 

[thegruf]

was editing that when you posted

 

[brianman]

Sorry for the branch topic, but completing the thought...
My Nov 2012 P85 Sig has around 45k miles on it. Sticker price was ~$110k.

KBB won't let me pick 2012 but if I go with 2013, 45000 miles, with my config it puts "Excellent" at $77,194. That's pretty darn good for an "obsoleted by P85D and S85D" P85 car that's 2.5 years old with a lot of miles.

Here's where KBB puts an Excellent condition vehicle with that mileage for the four 85 kWh flavors for 2013:
- $62,330 85
- $68,929 P85
- $71,700 Sig 85
- $77,194 Sig P85

 

[krisg81]

"Worthless" is the word you'd use? Really?

I agree "worthless" is a bit strong, because it is still worth something as a vehicle that still provides transportation (assuming its mechanically sound.) - but how much its actually worth is another thing. How much is an iPhone 2 worth? How about an iPhone 3G? They aren't worth anything to the average person now, to be honest. Why? Because of the newer phones with newer features. Had the iPhone not been updated so frequently, those models would be worth more. The same thing is happening with the Model S. It might not seem like a big deal now, but give it a few more months. The evolution of the Model S is great for new buyers, but its quickly diminishing the resale value of existing owners with the intentions of attracting new buyers and getting owners of existing Model S the desire to upgrade.

There are pro's and con's over everything, but maybe Tesla needs to realize why the auto industry has model years and do not make big changes throughout the year. They do have the long term experience in the industry, maybe its the one page out of their book that Tesla needs to read. The constant changes will get old and hurt the relationships with people who love Tesla the most, if they continue to out date their cars all the time. We all get technology evolves and changes frequently, but this is getting a bit out of hand now with the 70D and potential battery upgrade to the P85D already.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry for the branch topic, but completing the thought...
My Nov 2012 P85 Sig has around 45k miles on it. Sticker price was ~$110k.

KBB won't let me pick 2012 but if I go with 2013, 45000 miles, with my config it puts "Excellent" at $77,194. That's pretty darn good for an "obsoleted by P85D and S85D" P85 car that's 2.5 years old with a lot of miles.

KBB values their cars a lot on the model year. I would assume if they rated a 2012 it would be much lower than a 2013 car. Try NADA book values instead..

 

[Stoneymonster]

Maybe Tesla needs to start a subscription model

 

[thegruf]

called leasing ?

 

[brianman]

My Nov 2012 P85 Sig has around 45k miles on it. Sticker price was ~$110k.

KBB won't let me pick 2012 but if I go with 2013, 45000 miles, with my config it puts "Excellent" at $77,194. That's pretty darn good for an "obsoleted by P85D and S85D" P85 car that's 2.5 years old with a lot of miles.

KBB values their cars a lot on the model year. I would assume if they rated a 2012 it would be much lower than a 2013 car. Try NADA book values instead..

2012 Tesla Motors Model S Sedan 4D Signature Performance Prices, Values & Model S Sedan 4D Signature Performance Price Specs | NADAguides

2012 Tesla Motors Model S
Sedan 4D Signature Performance
Mileage 45,000

Clean Trade-In, Price with Options: $75,425
Clean Retail, Price with Options: $80,775

Seems like they agree on the ballpark pricing.

Not sure how many 2012 non-sigs (>0?) there were other than Founders series but for completeness:
2012 Tesla Motors Model S Sedan 4D Performance Electric Prices, Values & Model S Sedan 4D Performance Electric Price Specs | NADAguides

2012 Tesla Motors Model S
Sedan 4D Performance Electric
Mileage 45,000

Clean Trade-In, Price with Options: $65,700
Clean Retail, Price with Options: $70,825

I must admit I'm surprised that NADA puts about $10k premium for Sig it seems.

 

[sorka]

The certificate of origin states 738 H.P. (SAE)

They're going to have an awfully hard time backing that up.

 

[krisg81]

They're going to have an awfully hard time backing that up.

Seriously.

I actually think there is going to be a big problem soon with the comparison of the 85D and P85D. I really want to see what the 85D runs in the 1/4 mile now that it has a new Sport acceleration mode. For some reason I think its going to be VERY close to the P85D, and many people are going to wonder why there is such a small performance gap between a 422HP and a 691HP "Performance" variant. I think there is a good chance the 1/4 mile trap speed is within 2MPH of the P85D. The 85D now makes it harder to swallow that price difference between it and the P85D, in my opinion (at least until a performance update comes out for the P85D, which hopefully isn't a hardware change like a bigger battery.)

 

[sorka]

Seriously.

I actually think there is going to be a big problem soon with the comparison of the 85D and P85D. I really want to see what the 85D runs in the 1/4 mile now that it has a new Sport acceleration mode. For some reason I think its going to be VERY close to the P85D, and many people are going to wonder why there is such a small performance gap between a 422HP and a 691HP "Performance" variant. I think there is a good chance the 1/4 mile trap speed is within 2MPH of the P85D. The 85D now makes it harder to swallow that price difference between it and the P85D, in my opinion (at least until a performance update comes out for the P85D, which hopefully isn't a hardware change like a bigger battery.)

I don't think it's going to be as close as you think. The photos in the main forum from today showing the 85D accelerating maxes out at 316KW which translates into 423 hp while the P85D, although nowhere near 691 hp is still showing closer to 440KW which translates into 590 hp before inverter and AC motor losses. I don't think you're going to see an 85D hit anywhere near close to 115 in the 1/4. I'll bet the best it does is 105 mph trap speed.

 

[Stoneymonster]

I don't think it's going to be as close as you think. The photos in the main forum from today showing the 85D accelerating maxes out at 316KW which translates into 423 hp while the P85D, although nowhere near 691 hp is still showing closer to 440KW which translates into 590 hp before inverter and AC motor losses. I don't think you're going to see an 85D hit anywhere near close to 115 in the 1/4. I'll bet the best it does is 105 mph trap speed.

There's some discrepancy here. The REST API shows a peak power of 371kW. I wasn't looking at the gauge while this was happening, so I'm not sure what it said. Does anyone know if the REST API and the gauge show the same data or is the gauge perhaps post inverter loss?

 

[sorka]

What monitor apps have implemented this API? Would like to get get my hands on them

 

[Stoneymonster]

What monitor apps have implemented this API? Would like to get get my hands on them

There's a ton of great stuff here: REST API Tools and Apps - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum

I used the JavaScript tools (TeslaMS) which run under node.js.

 

[krisg81]

I don't think it's going to be as close as you think. The photos in the main forum from today showing the 85D accelerating maxes out at 316KW which translates into 423 hp while the P85D, although nowhere near 691 hp is still showing closer to 440KW which translates into 590 hp before inverter and AC motor losses. I don't think you're going to see an 85D hit anywhere near close to 115 in the 1/4. I'll bet the best it does is 105 mph trap speed.

Except the 85D received an update with a Sport acceleration mode, which Stoney confirmed puts out over 370kW at the inverter, closing that big gap between the P85D. I'm going to say the trap speed is AT LEAST what the former P85 put out, which is 108-110MPH or so. That's way too close to the trap speeds of the way more expensive performance P85D version of the car, advertised being 269 more horsepower than the 85D. That is more than 50% horsepower being sold, yet very little evidence to support a 50% boost in overall power. If the P85D puts out 440kW and the 85D puts out 371kW, that's definitely not a 50% difference that Tesla is selling us. If advertised horsepower % difference was accurate, the P85D would need to output 556kW in order to actually have 50% more actual motor HP then what the 85D is putting out.

the 85D owners are getting more bang for the buck, and P85D are getting less than advertised- what's up with that?

 

[sorka]

Except the 85D received an update with a Sport acceleration mode, which Stoney confirmed puts out over 370kW at the inverter, closing that big gap between the P85D. I'm going to say the trap speed is AT LEAST what the former P85 put out, which is 108-110MPH or so. That's way too close to the trap speeds of the way more expensive performance P85D version of the car, advertised being 269 more horsepower than the 85D. That is more than 50% horsepower being sold, yet very little evidence to support a 50% boost in overall power. If the P85D puts out 440kW and the 85D puts out 371kW, that's definitely not a 50% difference that Tesla is selling us. If advertised horsepower % difference was accurate, the P85D would need to output 556kW in order to actually have 50% more actual motor HP then what the 85D is putting out.

the 85D owners are getting more bang for the buck, and P85D are getting less than advertised- what's up with that?

Yea, well something doesn't add up. Both are AWD and if one is 3.1 vs 4.4 to 60, that could only be done with at least a 50% power advantage.

I don't believe the KW meter is that far off on todays photo. If it is, then the P85D meter is off as well which would mean it's like close to the power claim after all. I don't believe it to be the case for either drivetrain.

 

[krisg81]

Yea, well something doesn't add up. Both are AWD and if one is 3.1 vs 4.4 to 60, that could only be done with at least a 50% power advantage.

I don't believe the KW meter is that far off on todays photo. If it is, then the P85D meter is off as well which would mean it's like close to the power claim after all. I don't believe it to be the case for either drivetrain.

yep- I need to figure out how to log actual inverter kW on my P85D like what he did with his 85D. That graph would be great to overlay on his 85D data and see if we are truly getting a big performance bump for paying the premium on the P85D- and I don't mean just a quicker 0-60, but more power all over which is what seems fair when commanding such a premium price and marketing 50% more horsepower.