I would certainly care. I’ve got better things to do with my time than sit in a car watching netflix. If I was behind a slow moving vehicle I would want to get past it at the first opportunity.
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UK - FSD, Motorways, Regulation
- Thread starter WilberDaForce
- Start date
Even IF.....IF FSD level 4 / 5 came about, then the system would have to be duplex as a mimimum.
IE: every decision made by the car would have to be corroborated by an independent arrangement. This could mean that all data sent back to either the central bus in the car or back to a server elsewhere would then be assessed for safety before the manouevre is carried out. This could easily happen in a fraction of a second but an autonomous vehicle (with no steering wheel) would never be allowed to travel at speed amongst other vehicles or through a built up area where all the decision making happens inside that vehicle - only. ONE error would kill a lot of people.
Making this arrangement happen, (a) instantaneously, (b) without disruption in data transmission and (c) totally encrypted to avoid hacking........is going to take........forever!
That is why I think what will happen first is that FSD will only be allowed in areas/zones where a vehicle going bandit - can be contained. IE: inside a secure lane or the car attached to something like a rail or overhead track etc.
We make millions of decisions every minute whilst driving manually. We also use reasoning to navigate us around unusual circumstances (like someone flashing you to let you through, or passing each other in narrow country lanes - having to reverse as an option, spotting a large pothole ahead. Cars won't be doing this for many decades - especially if there is no steering wheel to intervene with !!!
IE: every decision made by the car would have to be corroborated by an independent arrangement. This could mean that all data sent back to either the central bus in the car or back to a server elsewhere would then be assessed for safety before the manouevre is carried out. This could easily happen in a fraction of a second but an autonomous vehicle (with no steering wheel) would never be allowed to travel at speed amongst other vehicles or through a built up area where all the decision making happens inside that vehicle - only. ONE error would kill a lot of people.
Making this arrangement happen, (a) instantaneously, (b) without disruption in data transmission and (c) totally encrypted to avoid hacking........is going to take........forever!
That is why I think what will happen first is that FSD will only be allowed in areas/zones where a vehicle going bandit - can be contained. IE: inside a secure lane or the car attached to something like a rail or overhead track etc.
We make millions of decisions every minute whilst driving manually. We also use reasoning to navigate us around unusual circumstances (like someone flashing you to let you through, or passing each other in narrow country lanes - having to reverse as an option, spotting a large pothole ahead. Cars won't be doing this for many decades - especially if there is no steering wheel to intervene with !!!
JupiterMan
Active Member
Yet human drivers have no duplex corroboration (although my wife sometimes will shout at me
), we only have one brain and one set of control outputs.Also humans cannot view all traffic and objects around the car simultaneously and as we know are prone to distraction, be that inside the car from passengers or phones, or from things happening outside the vehicle.
I would wager that no "rails/tracks" are required and that data will quite soon show autonomy to be far safer than humans. The biggest complication is the mix between (unpredictable) human drivers and (predictable) autonomous vehicles. The higher the % of autonomous vehicles on the road the safer things will eventually become.
the question to me is how much safer is enough for regulators and passengers. what is that threshold?
5 people a *day* die on the roads in the UK at the moment. The screw-ups I've seen from FSD beta videos range from a bit of scraped paint, to a potential write-off, to a potential head-on with serious injuries. But I think it's pretty unlikely someone would die. It's very wary around pedestrians, and quite rightly too.
JupiterMan
Active Member
indeed. And then look up dashcam camera videos on youtube and see thousands of horrific examples of human driving on a regular basis.
Already, even before we reach level 4, FSD seems to be being held to a different standard.
truth will be in the data.
It’s not really being held to a different standard. People that over take dangerously and end up in bad accidents pay the consequences which can include going to prison. Those people wouldn’t use FSD even if the car had it when they want the thrill.
The safety comparison for FSD is public transport, not private drivers. Have a bus, tram, train, plane accident where 1 person dies and there’s a massive inquest. Taxi and private hire are a halfway house but MOTs are much more frequent etc and I know from one fatal accident locally where somebody died it was a massive outcry over the safety,
Also don’t forget Tesla are benchmarking against US safety stats, ours are already orders of magnitude better.
The safety comparison for FSD is public transport, not private drivers. Have a bus, tram, train, plane accident where 1 person dies and there’s a massive inquest. Taxi and private hire are a halfway house but MOTs are much more frequent etc and I know from one fatal accident locally where somebody died it was a massive outcry over the safety,
Also don’t forget Tesla are benchmarking against US safety stats, ours are already orders of magnitude better.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
A thought occurring to me is that oncoming traffic, towards that overtaking idiot, is expecting normal behaviour, and so likelihood of spotting that idiot, in time, is reduced. Maybe an oncoming FSD car would detect it sooner and avoid / reduce the accident.
I saw one FSD video where car was at a red light, turning right (driving on the right of course). Light turned green, car didn't move, a car jumping the light came though (from the left), and then FSD calmly set off and made the right turn. Human driver may have seen it ... but also might well have been looking right, and not seen the approaching car from left.
So maybe "some new scenarios where you will die" and "some existing ones where you would have, but now you won't"
Not sure that's a good deal though .... 'coz I'm an excellent driver (we are all well above average, right?!) and I would not be troubled by all those avoid-idiot scenarios.
I guess it might but equally there's not going to be a large dataset of "oncoming idiots on the wrong side of the road" to train the car with and even then, what is the right thing to do? Slam on the brakes (we have phantom braking as it is), veer off the road (single vehicle accident with tesla driving itself into a bush)?
The primary advantage I can see is dealing with driver fatigue but there are already passive safety systems that help with that. Our old BMW had a right old go at me on a drive back from an overnight flight, and probably rightly so. It effectively made me stop, stretch my legs and grab a coffee, and that was using the cabin camera and driver inputs to detect I was tired.
You're right the transition is going to be a blood bath by comparison. Certain drivers will take advantage of driverless cars and create mayhem during that transition. For instance FSD goes into defence mode if the car is threatened by the proximity of another vehicle which poses a risk and the fsd car slows or even stops to minimse the risk. Can you imagine how much of a sitting duck these cars will become?
Someone somewhere will be making the decision to allow numerous deaths for FSD to indeed become FSD! How is that decision making process going to be facilitated? Who is going to press the 'tit' to allow driverless cars loose in amongst 26,000.,000 other cars, day and night rain and shine hot and cold, fast and slow? Sends shivers up my spine.....and hands up those who think it will be in the next 10 years????
Someone somewhere will be making the decision to allow numerous deaths for FSD to indeed become FSD! How is that decision making process going to be facilitated? Who is going to press the 'tit' to allow driverless cars loose in amongst 26,000.,000 other cars, day and night rain and shine hot and cold, fast and slow? Sends shivers up my spine.....and hands up those who think it will be in the next 10 years????
Just adding my latest motorway experiences with my 2019 M3P with FSD running 2024.8.7.
Basically just use distance keeping cruise control and avoid navigate on autopilot.
Why?
Because it was quite likely on the motorway junctions to decide to jerk the steering wheel to the left even when it was saying "keep right" (about 50% of the exits). I know it always used to say move to the middle lane past junctions, but now it seems like it will try and jerk the steering wheel to the left if you aren't in the middle lane.
Admittedly this is in the dark on unlit sections, and without matrix headlights, so perhaps it needs matrix headlights to see now.
So hang on to your wheel if you want to survive your journey
Basically just use distance keeping cruise control and avoid navigate on autopilot.
Why?
Because it was quite likely on the motorway junctions to decide to jerk the steering wheel to the left even when it was saying "keep right" (about 50% of the exits). I know it always used to say move to the middle lane past junctions, but now it seems like it will try and jerk the steering wheel to the left if you aren't in the middle lane.
Admittedly this is in the dark on unlit sections, and without matrix headlights, so perhaps it needs matrix headlights to see now.
So hang on to your wheel if you want to survive your journey
Had my first ever 'phantom braking' today. Passing a light truck on my inside on a dual carriageway doing circa 70mph ish and bang - brakes slam on for about a second???? I had to accelerate out of it to keep the car going?? Luckily no-one behind me.
I was in cruise contol at the time. Having since done some research on this website about 'phantom braking' - it appears it is quite common and has been for years!
FSD - don't make me laugh.
Z
I was in cruise contol at the time. Having since done some research on this website about 'phantom braking' - it appears it is quite common and has been for years!
FSD - don't make me laugh.
Z
Zilla91
Active Member
Looks like FSD is out of beta in the US and is now labelled as FSD (supervised), which rather suggests it’s not really fully self driving 
I suspect the regulators (rightly) wanted them to change the name since it is, all improvements aside, not suitable for unsupervised self driving. But anyone who has followed the advancements made in the USA version that isn't even marginally impressed must be watching different videos than I. If only we had it in its current form here I would happily beta test it (exercising due care).Looks like FSD is out of beta in the US and is now labelled as FSD (supervised), which rather suggests it’s not really fully self driving
EDIT: I think it will be some time still until it is truly out of beta. Any system of automated driving from any manufacturer should be ever improving.
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Some gullible members (on the Canada site) are opting for the $99/month for fsd(supervised)....you really couldn't make it up!
Why not just send Musk a cheque each month for same, whilst carrying on as normal because you have to drive with your hands and feet inches away from the controls whilst monitoring everything the car does?
Why do peeps feel compelled to spend spend spend for something which obviously is decades away from full compliance.
Why not just send Musk a cheque each month for same, whilst carrying on as normal because you have to drive with your hands and feet inches away from the controls whilst monitoring everything the car does?
Why do peeps feel compelled to spend spend spend for something which obviously is decades away from full compliance.
Pink Duck
Active Member
That video is also from 4 years ago… with suspicion that Tesla sent a fleet of drivers out on the same route to show the most successful at Autonomy Day.
This year’s Investor Day originally thought to be around 1st March came and went, so perhaps 22nd April?
This year’s Investor Day originally thought to be around 1st March came and went, so perhaps 22nd April?
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Last week I was in the US and just before flying home, decided to go for a Tesla test drive with FSD.
I took a colleague and after remembering that I had to engage FSD to make the car move (funny moment while we figured out why it wasn't moving), it was very impressive.
Felt like a very natural driver to the point that my colleague didn't believe that I wasn't driving. It did several things on the drive that were in complete alignment to what a human would do.
We didn't have long but it occurred to me just how simple and useable a Tesla would be as a hire car for those already used to Tesla. I could jump into a car in a US city and not immediately be having to think hard about the driving part, monitoring is at a different level.
Tried the new auto park too. It worked, I could have done it in one go and faster but I'll take what's offered when we get it.
I took a colleague and after remembering that I had to engage FSD to make the car move (funny moment while we figured out why it wasn't moving), it was very impressive.
Felt like a very natural driver to the point that my colleague didn't believe that I wasn't driving. It did several things on the drive that were in complete alignment to what a human would do.
We didn't have long but it occurred to me just how simple and useable a Tesla would be as a hire car for those already used to Tesla. I could jump into a car in a US city and not immediately be having to think hard about the driving part, monitoring is at a different level.
Tried the new auto park too. It worked, I could have done it in one go and faster but I'll take what's offered when we get it.
…and now the U.K. and Europe are effectively paying more for FSD than the US !!
apple.news
Tesla lowers price of 'Full Self-Driving' to $8,000, down from $12,000 — Electrek
Tesla has once again lowered the price of its Full Self-Driving software by $4,000, now costing $8,000, down from a previous price of $12,000 in the US.
apple.news
It might be slightly less as it’s $8,000 before sales tax, so dependant on what software sales tax applies. Still a lot better value than anyone outside the US is getting. Ultimately it’s just a discount to promote sales after weaker demand in the US rather than a reflection of the worth or otherwise of FSD.…and now the U.K. and Europe are effectively paying more for FSD than the US !!
Tesla lowers price of 'Full Self-Driving' to $8,000, down from $12,000 — Electrek
Tesla has once again lowered the price of its Full Self-Driving software by $4,000, now costing $8,000, down from a previous price of $12,000 in the US.
Drew57
Active ember
Exactly my experience this week in Idaho as a passenger in a friends Model Y LR using FSD Beta v12.
Very impressive and completely autonomous including junctions, lane changes, turns, lights and even a roundabout, all 'city street' driving. Apart from US required steering wheel torque (much longer gap than in the UK) there was no human intervention from picking me up to pulling into the destination parking lot.
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