But why not exercise and retain those shares if you believe, like many of us do, the stock will go to xxx $ in 2-3 yrs. The only reason to exercise and sell is if you need the money or you believe the shares will be lower in the future. It just not send a good message to the market to be the company cheerleader and hold tocken shares George 200 - CFO 980 shares. I hope I'm wrong.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
TSLA Investor Discussions
- Thread starter Fr23shjive
- Start date
-
- Tags
- investment market TSLA
- Status
But why not exercise and retain those shares if you believe, like many of us do, the stock will go to xxx $ in 2-3 yrs. The only reason to exercise and sell is if you need the money or you believe the shares will be lower in the future. It just not send a good message to the market to be the company cheerleader and hold tocken shares George 200 - CFO 980 shares. I hope I'm wrong.
Citizen-T
Active Member
Maybe George B with grant us a blog update tomorrow. Be nice to do something with my Aug calls.
We're going a bit off-topic again but the short answer is that when you exercise you are losing power/flexibility and leverage.
You would be better off leaving those options as options and spending the "new money" on separate/additional shares.
new interview with Elon. Helps clarify some of his earlier remarks. Great read- highly recommended:
from the article "The next six months for Tesla are going to be tough. I think six months from now, we'll know whether it will survive or not. And I think it will. But the next six months will determine that."
Q and A: Elon Musk, CEO, Tesla - Automobile Magazine
from the article "The next six months for Tesla are going to be tough. I think six months from now, we'll know whether it will survive or not. And I think it will. But the next six months will determine that."
Q and A: Elon Musk, CEO, Tesla - Automobile Magazine
Yes, BUT for example, the CFO (of all people —the money guy) has exercised and sold $100,000+ worth of shares vs exercise and HOLDING shares which would show more confidence in the company/shares.
Ownership Summary
Institutional Stock Ownership 33.1%
Institutional Mutual Fund Ownership 33.3%
Mutual Fund Ownership 1.2%
Insider Ownership 0.2%
Other 32.2%
Total Outstanding Shares: 105,432,497
AHUJA, DEEPAK — Chief Financial Officer
5 Most Recent Transactions (Last 2 Years)
Date Transaction Shares
07/16/12 Option Execute 10,000
07/16/12 Automatic Sell 10,000
05/10/12 Option Execute 10,000
05/10/12 Automatic Sell 10,000
02/02/12 Option Execute 10,000
Current holding as of 7/16: 10,980 shares (980 + another 10,000) better but still a net seller.
Again, I hope I’m wrong and this data from Fidelity.com is incomplete and does not include shares held in trust (like Elon’s).
It's good to take a look at that, but before reading too much into that stuff, you should probably try to find out if a) the options had to be exercised by a certain date, he may have just wanted to avoid letting the unrecognized gain go to waste and b) there are lots of reasons to cash out of investments regardless of future expectations, maybe his wife wants a new kitchen, maybe he wants a new ferrari etc.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Joe, you can find more on this subject by searching back through this thread but let me try and put your mind at rest....
*ckessel* highlighted back here Tesla's Form DEF 14A where the company confirms on page 22 that:
From page 25 onwards you can see in detail the long-term incentive programs which are all equity based.
Most of the sales you see are part of the directors compensation packages and the reason they sell immediately is that they are automatic under Rule 10b5-1, which avoids insider knowledge issues by making the sales automatic. These sales are not determined by the employee but happen regardless of what he or she wants.
In short: the directors have a long term equity incentive and the short term sales are automated. It does not denote a lack of belief in the company.
Hope that helps.
*ckessel* highlighted back here Tesla's Form DEF 14A where the company confirms on page 22 that:
From page 25 onwards you can see in detail the long-term incentive programs which are all equity based.
Most of the sales you see are part of the directors compensation packages and the reason they sell immediately is that they are automatic under Rule 10b5-1, which avoids insider knowledge issues by making the sales automatic. These sales are not determined by the employee but happen regardless of what he or she wants.
In short: the directors have a long term equity incentive and the short term sales are automated. It does not denote a lack of belief in the company.
Hope that helps.
Disclosure: I have never shorted TSLA. As a long with 1900 shares, this is a big deal to me and going forward I will switch to a short term (days) trading strategy until I see a better insider buying pattern (buy & hold vs buy & cash-out).
Thanks for the info but this supports my concern if I compare this data with the Fidelity data (again, maybe I don’t have all the data): Their current holdings are far less than the options they were granted & exercised/sold. I can’t image that they "needed" the cash that bad if they thought the same shares would be 2x 4x 6x in the next few years. Maybe an analyst can clarify what their total long term beneficial holdings are and we can hear from them directly on an conference call.
NigelM
Recovering Member
^^^ It's all there in the declaration and if you read pages 25-28 you have all the data, the SEC site explains Rule10b5.
I’m going to let this go after this post (maybe I’m too dense). If you compare the shares granted/exercised (your data) with the shares now held (insider info on Fidelity, Yahoo, whatever) it shows a big net sell for George and Deepak as I see it.
TSLA Insider Transactions | Tesla Motors, Inc. Stock - Yahoo! Finance
NigelM
Recovering Member
That's because of the automatic sell order. It seems strange if you've never experienced it, but it's not that unusual which is why the analysts are not bothered by it.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Deepak seems to have exercised regularly (back to at least Feb 2011), it might be more his income than an investment. (And you probably don't know how many he is keeping.) I think employees exercise options all the time, including in companies with very positive outlook. They want to buy houses and so on, before they retire. To me that doesn't seem a good guideline.
I'd hazard a guess that 99.999% of SEC insiders (insiders as defined by SEC Rule 10-whatever) in publicly traded companies have an automatic sell schedule set up. You'd have be insane or independently wealthy not to.
The problem is that the sales windows for SEC insiders can be very limited. If you have material information that could swing stock price, you're not allowed to trade the stock until after that information becomes public. So when Tesla is working out deals like the Toyota Rav4 deal that probably took quarters to negotiate, you're locked out of trading from the time people start talking about that deal until after the deal closes and the details are published. If you have multiple deals in the works that could swing the stock price like the Daimler-Benz or SolarCity deal, you're locked out until every last one of them is settled.
And even then, you're only allowed to sell in very limited trading windows. At my company, it's something like one month out of every (3-month) quarter.
So at a company like Tesla, if you're an SEC insider I think you could easily go years without being able to sell stock unless you set up an automated sell system. (I certainly saw that happen at my company in its younger days.) But the automated sell system means you sell a certain amount every quarter no matter what happens.
The problem is that the sales windows for SEC insiders can be very limited. If you have material information that could swing stock price, you're not allowed to trade the stock until after that information becomes public. So when Tesla is working out deals like the Toyota Rav4 deal that probably took quarters to negotiate, you're locked out of trading from the time people start talking about that deal until after the deal closes and the details are published. If you have multiple deals in the works that could swing the stock price like the Daimler-Benz or SolarCity deal, you're locked out until every last one of them is settled.
And even then, you're only allowed to sell in very limited trading windows. At my company, it's something like one month out of every (3-month) quarter.
So at a company like Tesla, if you're an SEC insider I think you could easily go years without being able to sell stock unless you set up an automated sell system. (I certainly saw that happen at my company in its younger days.) But the automated sell system means you sell a certain amount every quarter no matter what happens.
Also for diversification. Who knows what might happen to make all your options go underwater for a few years? So sell some regularly, and buy other stuff that is not likely to be affected by anything that happens specifically to Tesla.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Diversification of job and investments. I don't think that little info we have (without any details) is much to go by.
(Although in my case I did well to keep a large part of the stock options for as long as I could, until the expiration date came up (just 1 or 2 months earlier would have been slightly better), and now wish I had kept the others as well.)
Short interest
I usually use the NASDAQ pages to monitor TSLA short interest, but a) they only post these figures twice a month, and b) the mid-August numbers (they usually post data for the 13th or 15th of each month) are still not up.
Does anybody know of a more timely (but still accurate) source for the number of shorts?
I usually use the NASDAQ pages to monitor TSLA short interest, but a) they only post these figures twice a month, and b) the mid-August numbers (they usually post data for the 13th or 15th of each month) are still not up.
Does anybody know of a more timely (but still accurate) source for the number of shorts?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
