Transport Evolved

[JRP3]

If you wanted to fuss with rebate incentives other than % electrified, I would think range would make more sense as another input over kWh. That way it would at least reward efficiency more.

Well since no one seems to be building a Solectria Sunrise type vehicle you're still rewarding pack size in the end, which means higher dollar vehicles.

 

[TEG]

However, I think GM's "story" to tell for this upcoming year is about Volt vs Prius, and that some of the Leaf stuff will fade. I hope. And same with Leaf, once Focus is out.

Yeah - Volt vs Prius is a more 'interesting' and appropriate comparison to me. Volt vs Leaf is more artificial and not so direct (even if some are forced to fit that square peg into the round hole somehow.) Leaf vs FocusEV is also a good comparison.

 

[TEG]

...We're seeing some bigger cars and small crossover concepts, but OEMs know that the bigger the vehicle, the more battery is required, adding huge cost. And that there's some interest in hybrid SUVs, but a lot of the people buying larger vehicles aren't as efficiency or environmentally minded to begin with, so they're less likely to pay the incremental cost required...

Well, we know Model-X is coming. My sense is that the electrification will move up to larger vehicles. It wouldn't surprise me to see a full size pick-up with a plug/socket in a few years.

 

[vfx]

... One major criticism of EV's that is constantly brought up, especially with Tesla, is that the rebate helps rich people buy toys. Most people buying Roadsters and Model S's don't really need the rebate to make the purchase. The general public sees a $7500 rebate going to purchase a $50K+ vehicle and has a problem with it.....

Who can ever know how many US Roadsters were sold with that little push as a helper? We all know that Tesla's car pushed the movement forward and for a while it was the only pure 100 %, full, all the time, unadulterated, gasoline free, chaste, EV you could buy. The rebate was yet another reason for GM and Nissan to even make their cars. Kinda chicken and egg.

 

[Norbert]

I understand. But in any group, including the pure EV advocates, there are some whose views and statements are more extreme than others. There are purists who do trash PHEVs, and the Volt in particular, going well beyond saying that it’s not good enough. (Although I think that even that sentiment isn't the most effective for advocacy purposes, especially without elaboration.) But I didn’t say that all purists trash the Volt, I referred to those who do. I have been told that the Volt “sucks” just because GM made it many times. Or that it is no better than any other gas car. And senveral other unfairly derogatory sentiments that aren’t based on the merits of the car itself. And they are entitled to those views, but I’m not out of line to point out how, in my own opinion only, they can be counterproductive in the bigger picture. I don’t think I was trashing all purists by doing so, but you may disagree.

I think my (personal) response to all this is, for the time being, is best encapsulated in what I said above:

A dollar going to a project developing long-range EVs, is worth about 10 times as much as a dollar going to a PHEV project. And I'm not exaggerating for dramatic purposes, even though I haven't really calculated that number.

Otherwise, I'll go into pop corn mode for a while, as far as this thread is concerned.

 

[vfx]

Oh yes. My EV1 love is very, very pure. Hey, I got a kid who literally owes his life to that car!

Better than a cab I guess.

 

[TEG]

Oh yes. My EV1 love is very, very pure. Hey, I got a kid who literally owes his life to that car!

At first I thought this was a remark about safety equipment, collision avoidance, crash worthiness...
But then pondering the time-frame I wonder if we are talking about fogged up windows, or getting to the hospital on time. :redface:
(And we were suggesting not to take this topic personally! )

 

[Bud]

Evchels and TEG, your posts #502 and #503 are great stuff! I’m a longtime fan of you both.

Chelsea’s sudden interest in this site is elevating the discussion, and maybe even adding a touch of humility to the lectures of the two less-than-fully-informed guys who dominate most discussions.

I have a few minor quibbles that could be aired out when the climate is favorable. Meanwhile, I just wanted to say thanks.

 

[evchels]

Well, we know Model-X is coming. My sense is that the electrification will move up to larger vehicles. It wouldn't surprise me to see a full size pick-up with a plug/socket in a few years.

I think we will too, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Let’s face it, the Model S is bigger and heavier and not as efficient than it needs to be, but it’s also attractive to certain buyers who won’t get something like a Leaf. Any metric can be gamed, but I’ve been happy with how this one has worked out so far, other than wishing the minimum point of entry were higher than 5kWh.

Who can ever know how many US Roadsters were sold with that little push as a helper? We all know that Tesla's car pushed the movement forward and for a while it was the only pure 100 %, full, all the time, unadulterated, gasoline free, chaste, EV you could buy. The rebate was yet another reason for GM and Nissan to even make their cars. Kinda chicken and egg.

I’m gonna walk out on a limb and say that it probably wasn’t the deciding factor for very many. A few, perhaps...

The MSRP issue is a much bigger one to me. I hear the “rich people” complaint all the time too, but I’m not fundamentally opposed to everyone getting the same reward for the same “good behavior”. I did a post on some of this a while back...

A dollar going to a project developing long-range EVs, is worth about 10 times as much as a dollar going to a PHEV project. And I'm not exaggerating for dramatic purposes, even though I haven't really calculated that number.

I understand- but there are opinions far more extreme than that one, and it’s some of those (and really more of the ones that might discourage a PHEV intender from any plug-in at all) that concern me in terms of their implications.

And I had to google “popcorn mode”. Cute. Long as you’re not doing it on my account...

Better than a cab I guess.

At first I thought this was a remark about safety equipment, collision avoidance, crash worthiness...
But then pondering the time-frame I wonder if we are talking about fogged up windows, or getting to the hospital on time. :redface:
(And we were suggesting not to take this topic personally! )

Ha! And I was just referring to the fact that had Bob and I not met on the EV1 program, the boy wouldn't exist. But now that I know where your minds are...I plead the fifth!

 

[evchels]

Evchels and TEG, your posts #502 and #503 are great stuff! I’m a longtime fan of you both.

Chelsea’s sudden interest in this site is elevating the discussion, and maybe even adding a touch of humility to the lectures of the two less-than-fully-informed guys who dominate most discussions.

I have a few minor quibbles that could be aired out when the climate is favorable. Meanwhile, I just wanted to say thanks.

Thanks, Bud! I've come to read here and there, but someone happened to forward me a link to this conversation, and I've gotten sucked in.

Speaking for myself, happy to hear quibbles.

 

[Norbert]

And I had to google “popcorn mode”. Cute. Long as you’re not doing it on my account...

Not on your account? I don't know what that could possibly mean, and since you seem to have a tendency to misunderstand at critical points, I'll explain that "pop corn mode" is the mode of watching a movie, meaning, you'll be interested to follow the action, without participating.

 

[Lloyd]

And I had to google “popcorn mode”. Cute. Long as you’re not doing it on my account...

Popcorn Mode????

[IMGhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/soapness/3920378055/]http://www.flickr.com/photos/soapness/3920378055/[/IMG]

 

[JRP3]

Who can ever know how many US Roadsters were sold with that little push as a helper? We all know that Tesla's car pushed the movement forward and for a while it was the only pure 100 %, full, all the time, unadulterated, gasoline free, chaste, EV you could buy. The rebate was yet another reason for GM and Nissan to even make their cars. Kinda chicken and egg.

Initially I had no problem with the rebate, but in the current climate of many clamoring for an end to subsidies we need to focus them where needed most, and where the perception is not "buying toys for the rich". I'm also concerned that the rebates may lessen the drive for OEM's to lower costs as quickly as possible.

 

[Norbert]

Popcorn Mode????

[IMGhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/soapness/3920378055/]http://www.flickr.com/photos/soapness/3920378055/[/IMG]

That's not what I look like when I sit in a movie theatre and eat popcorn! That mode must have been the mode you've been in for a while!

 

[JRP3]

A dollar going to a project developing long-range EVs, is worth about 10 times as much as a dollar going to a PHEV project. And I'm not exaggerating for dramatic purposes, even though I haven't really calculated that number.

Interestingly John Peterson makes something of an opposite argument, that a bunch of HEV Prius's are better than one EV. I don't happen to agree with that of course.

 

[Norbert]

Interestingly John Peterson makes something of an opposite argument, that a bunch of HEV Prius's are better than one EV. I don't happen to agree with that of course.

I stopped reading his articles with a few exceptions. They were amusing for a while and then it got boring. I thought he was saying hybrids are plain better than EVs.

EDIT: If you mention John Peterson, i'll better point out a big difference: He saying it is bad to buy an EV. I'm not saying PHEVs are bad. I'd buy one if I couldn't buy an EV, generally speaking. But a PHEV is not something I would advocate to others.

 

[JRP3]

He was, his argument is that the same kWh's of battery is better used spread over a bunch of Prius's than one EV. His assumption is we can only make a limited number of batteries and that EV's and Prius's are in competition for them. He's obviously ignoring the point that the Prius uses NiMH and EV's use lithium derivatives.

 

[dhrivnak]

I said a while back that if money were no object, there's be a Roadster in my driveway.

I was one that thought a Tesla Roadster was out of my price range but fortunately I found a good deal on a used 2008. I now have over 3000 EV miles and love the ride.

But I think I remember about you getting a Volt and that too is cool as the Volt along with Telsa helps to wean us off oil. As several have said any EV mile is better than a gasoline mile. I fully believe electrification is coming and if people need a crutch (range extender) that is better than buying an all gas car in my humble opinion.

 

[evchels]

Didn't see RotEC yet, sounds like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. In all its strong criticism, WKtEC portrayed GM as a powerful company and that's what large companies sometimes want more than a "nice" image, see Hummer. There were thoughts, at the time, that it has aspects of being a GM promotional video in disguise, and today's decidedly pro-Volt stance appears to give substance to that view.

Interesting, I've never heard the GM promo video rumor; most people tend to think we hit them pretty hard. But the storyline for both films was decided by Chris Paine- I didn't see the first one til it premiered at Sundance. And you'll be pleased to hear I'm not in the second one at all.

 

[evchels]

I was one that thought a Tesla Roadster was out of my price range but fortunately I found a good deal on a used 2008. I now have over 3000 EV miles and love the ride.

But I think I remember about you getting a Volt and that too is cool as the Volt along with Telsa helps to wean us off oil. As several have said any EV mile is better than a gasoline mile. I fully believe electrification is coming and if people need a crutch (range extender) that is better than buying an all gas car in my humble opinion.

That's great, congratulations!

I didn't get a Volt, but I drove one for a few months as part of a test program. It went back in March, and I've been back in my Saturn ever since. But I spend a fair amount of time at the LA Tesla store, and get my Roadster fix every once in a while.