Toyota Ammonia Engine

I didn't see any thread about this yet, but I just saw Toyota claims that they are going to kill off EVs with their new ammonia engine.

Toyota Takes Aim at EVs With Ammonia Engine

Seems like they are trying to do anything but electrify their fleet. The most common process used today to make ammonia is the Haber-Bosch process which costs about $3.50/gal to produce.

Ammonia production costs? - Thunder Said Energy

The process also produces a fair bit of CO2. There are some other processes that are in the lab that could potentially produce ammonia cheaper and without the CO2 production, but those processes are not available today. The Haber-Bosch process will be with us for a while.

Ammonia is also not very energy dense compared to gasoline. Gasoline has about 33 KWh/Gal of energy, but ammonia only has about 9 KWh/gal. If an ICE that burns ammonia has the same efficiency as a gasoline ICE the car is going to have 1/4 the fuel efficiency of a gas ICE today everything else being equal (same size, weight, etc.) So ammonia ICE will have to have 4X the gas tank size to get the same range.

This seems in some ways loonier than hydrogen fuel cell cars. At least those cars are taking advantage of a technology that is already working. The new ammonia ICE is in the prototype stage and has had to overcome a lot of obstacles because ammonia burns differently than gasoline.

Just like the processes to make ammonia in other ways is years from seeing the market, so is this engine. Meanwhile BEVs will be steadily increasing in market share during the years Toyota is burning on this tech.

There have been some ideas for using ammonia made with solar energy in places that will have an over abundance like Australia to fuel ocean going ships. We will need something other than batteries for that. BEV ships are going to be limited to short run ships like ferries. They are not well suited for ocean going vessels. But for ground transportation we have a perfectly viable propulsion type with BEVs. BEVs are not universally suited to all ground transport needs, some kind of ICE might still be used in places like the Australian Outback and some remote areas in North America (we never got rid of horses for all transport needs, but we did replace most of them with ICE), but BEVs will eventually be used for almost all ground transport applications (once we have enough battery production).

I'm not sure Toyota is going to survive the transition to BEVs. They seem to be overly focused on coming up with some cunning plan to keep the existing infrastructure with a new fuel source flowing in it instead of accepting the reality that BEVs are the future.

"Toyota" by danielctw is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
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[MichaelP90DL]

I read a book about IBM's business tactics. It perfected the art of FUD -- Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. When a competitor announced a forthcoming product, IBM would undercut it with an announcement of its own predicting they would shortly be coming out with something better, cheaper, or whatever. Toyota's recent announcements remind me of that tactic. "OK, let's see what you've actually got, fellas."

 

[PCTAZRichard]

Huh, I thought Toyota was all in with some other company on solid state batteries. I guess they are big enough to do more than one thing at a time.
I’m of the mind of - don’t pay attention to announcements of future projects. Or current projects with future pay off. When I see a product with a price tag that I can go get then I’ll believe it.
I guess I should read the links because all I can think is - why? Does this clean up ammonia from the world?

 

[Rocket_man]

I saw some stupid video on YouTube about this and it was a silly proposal. Zero chance of happening. And oh by the way if you inhale ammonia at best it will burn your lungs, at worst it could kill you. This is just a click bait video.

We have friends in Japan. The problem with mass adoption of EV in the larger metropolitan areas is charging. Many people live in multi-unit dwellings and don't have convenient access to charge at home. If I couldn't charge at home I don't think I'd have an EV.

 

[Watts_Up]

I'm not sure Toyota is going to survive the transition to BEVs.
They seem to be overly focused on coming up with some cunning plan to keep the existing infrastructure
with a new fuel source flowing in it instead of accepting the reality that BEVs are the future.

One aspect to look at is that in Japan generaly large companies hire employees just after college and keep emplyees until retirement.
But shifting ICE factories to produce BEV will require to sutdown the engine and gear box plants, affecting nearly half of the work force.
So it is really understandable that Japanese companies drag their feet as long as possible, and as compromise produce hybrid vehicles.

But it is not impossible that, like Apple 'Project Titan', Toyota secretly is already making plans to produce mass produced BEV,
and try to distract everyone by making visible some other projects, such as the Mirai H2 low volume production.

In fact Toyota has been working on hydrogen for more than 30 years and
Toyota is certified for producing fuel cells and resin high-pressure hydrogen storage tanks.
So the Mirai project, and other projects like the Hydrogen bus SORA (an acronym for Sky, Ocean, River, Air)
are side developments and justification for the Toyota Hydrogen R&D studies effort.

 

[JezzaE]

I didn't see any thread about this yet, but I just saw Toyota claims that they are going to kill off EVs with their new ammonia engine.

Toyota Takes Aim at EVs With Ammonia Engine

Seems like they are trying to do anything but electrify their fleet. The most common process used today to make ammonia is the Haber-Bosch process which costs about $3.50/gal to produce.

Ammonia production costs? - Thunder Said Energy

The process also produces a fair bit of CO2. There are some other processes that are in the lab that could potentially produce ammonia cheaper and without the CO2 production, but those processes are not available today. The Haber-Bosch process will be with us for a while.

Ammonia is also not very energy dense compared to gasoline. Gasoline has about 33 KWh/Gal of energy, but ammonia only has about 9 KWh/gal. If an ICE that burns ammonia has the same efficiency as a gasoline ICE the car is going to have 1/4 the fuel efficiency of a gas ICE today everything else being equal (same size, weight, etc.) So ammonia ICE will have to have 4X the gas tank size to get the same range.

This seems in some ways loonier than hydrogen fuel cell cars. At least those cars are taking advantage of a technology that is already working. The new ammonia ICE is in the prototype stage and has had to overcome a lot of obstacles because ammonia burns differently than gasoline.

Just like the processes to make ammonia in other ways is years from seeing the market, so is this engine. Meanwhile BEVs will be steadily increasing in market share during the years Toyota is burning on this tech.

There have been some ideas for using ammonia made with solar energy in places that will have an over abundance like Australia to fuel ocean going ships. We will need something other than batteries for that. BEV ships are going to be limited to short run ships like ferries. They are not well suited for ocean going vessels. But for ground transportation we have a perfectly viable propulsion type with BEVs. BEVs are not universally suited to all ground transport needs, some kind of ICE might still be used in places like the Australian Outback and some remote areas in North America (we never got rid of horses for all transport needs, but we did replace most of them with ICE), but BEVs will eventually be used for almost all ground transport applications (once we have enough battery production).

I'm not sure Toyota is going to survive the transition to BEVs. They seem to be overly focused on coming up with some cunning plan to keep the existing infrastructure with a new fuel source flowing in it instead of accepting the reality that BEVs are the future.

View attachment 982134
"Toyota" by danielctw is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Imaged added for Blog Feed thumbnail

My family used to be a diehard Toyota family. Their dealers basically forced me to look elsewhere which is what led me to Tesla. Gotta say I’m forever grateful for that and given Toyota‘s latest round of BS news releases I can’t see going back unless they really pull a rabbit outta their a$$!

 

[Ham dude]

I saw the same thing and dismissed it as clickbait.

 

[wdolson]

I saw some stupid video on YouTube about this and it was a silly proposal. Zero chance of happening. And oh by the way if you inhale ammonia at best it will burn your lungs, at worst it could kill you. This is just a click bait video.

We have friends in Japan. The problem with mass adoption of EV in the larger metropolitan areas is charging. Many people live in multi-unit dwellings and don't have convenient access to charge at home. If I couldn't charge at home I don't think I'd have an EV.

That's also a problem in the US where people live in apartments, but the problem is being addressed. My neighbor works for a commercial electric company and he said 70% of their business the last few years is installing EV chargers at apartments and condos. Places where apartment buildings don't have their own parking, cities are going to have to install EV chargers on the streets. There is also a push for employers to install EV chargers.

It's a big infrastructure build out that is going to cost money, but Japan is a wealthy country. Those cars are parking somewhere at night and many of them are used to drive to work. They can install the infrastructure.

Though I can see the resistance. It's happening here in the Portland area because there are a lot of people buying EVs between the environmental consciousness and electricity being some of the cheapest in North America ($0.08/KWH). A lot of people who live in Clark County and have to commute into Portland went electric 7-8 years ago because it saved them a lot of money.

My family used to be a diehard Toyota family. Their dealers basically forced me to look elsewhere which is what led me to Tesla. Gotta say I’m forever grateful for that and given Toyota‘s latest round of BS news releases I can’t see going back unless they really pull a rabbit outta their a$$!

We have a neighbor like that. He has something like 6 Toyotas (or brands owned by Toyota like he has a Scion). His daughter bought the house across the street from him and her family has another 6 Toyotas or something. The other neighbors complain about half their cars being parked on the street.

 

[MC3OZ]

This primer on hydrogen in general is useful:-

3X the amount of energy would be required to power transport with hydrogen, I can't see ammonia being better.

Ammonia was proposed by log distance shipping but Maersk prefers methanol:-

Equinor and Maersk partner up to ensure continued green methanol supply for the world’s first methanol-enabled container vessel

Copenhagen, Denmark – A.P. Moller - Maersk (Maersk) and Equinor have signed an agreement securing supply of green methanol for Maersk’s landmark, new methanol-enabled feeder vessel during its initial months of operation from September 2023 and into the first half of 2024.

www.maersk.com

Terraform have a process for making Green methane which could power cars via LPG.

Terraform Industries Whitepaper 2.0

Fuel from the sky: Cheap hydrocarbons from CO2 direct air capture and sunlight. (Original post). terraformindustries.com At Terraform Industries, we believe our species and civilization shoul…

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

Methane makes more sense because the hydrogen gains energy content when combined with CO2.

These reasons the Japanese seem to being going slow on EVs seems to be concern about supply chain dependence of China, concerns about renewable and nuclear energy generation in Japan and concerns about their electricity grid and the upgrades that might be required.

Eastern Japan has 50 Hz networks while western Japan has 60 Hz networks.[10][11] Limitations of conversion capacity causes a bottleneck to transfer electricity and shift imbalances between the networks

I can't find the info now but I think a lot of their domestic distribution may only be 110V.

Toyota has recently pivoted to making more EVs.,

I think the Japanese will sort out any electricity grid issues they need to sort out and/or come up with an innovative fast charging solution.

The majority of their EVs may be small enough to not require overly fast charging, they will establish domestic battery supply chains with low dependency on the Chinese.

Maintaining their export market share is the difficult challenge.

 

[Darkside213]

I'll give Toyota this: they stick to their guns. They are innovative and have never been in the EV game 100%. I'll give Toyoda-san that for sure.

 

[Bikeman]

Nothing says "We are the leader" better than a headline stating the planned use of an even more poisonous and deadly gaseous chemical than gasoline already is. Brilliant move, Toyota. Please give my regards to the soon-to-be laid off marketing and engineering team that is proposing that.

 

[sleepydoc]

Let’s think about this - $3.50 per gallon but ⅓ the energy density. Assuming equivalent efficiency (it’s still an ICE) we have the equivalent of $10.50 per gallon to drive it. If the engine gets 40 MPG then you’re paying $0.27 per mile in fuel vs $0.09. Hmm… not looking so good.

Now, what about NH4 production? Well it apparently produces significant CO2. (Going off the post above for this, I don’t have actual numbers.) Gasoline requires some CO2 for production and then produces CO2 when used. Let’s call this a wash. Electricity produces varying amounts of CO2 depending on the source but can be as low as zero.

NH4 is potentially renewable so it wins over gasoline there. There are some techniques to synthesize petroleum products but they’re not commercially viable at this point. Like CO2, electricity‘s renewability depends on the source but it’s potentially 100% renewable.

How about transportation/distribution? NH4 requires tankers or pipelines to physically transport it, similar to gasoline, except you need to transport triple the amount. NH4 is a clear loser here. Electricity is more easily transportable and scalable than either NH4 or gasoline With the caveat that you need transmission lines that can be a significant upfront investment.

Finally, there the elephant that no one is talking about - toxicity. What happens when a gas tank is punctured? It leaks and is a fire risk. As long as there’s no spark it’s an environmental issue but will at least evaporate fairly quickly. Ditto if you spill some gasoline while filling. Not great but no catastrophe, either. Electricity is hard to compare in this regard; Charging equipment is generally safe with little to no risk to the user assuming proper design and installation. A damaged EV battery can catch fire and be difficult or impossible to extinguish, however it does so at a slower rate. What about ammonia? Well, it doesn‘t catch fire but it’s highly toxic to anyone in the vicinity. Here’s one example of a crash. Imagine every car on the road carrying a tank of toxic ammonia.

Yeah, no matter how you cut it, ammonia loses.

 

[EbS-P]

Who here has actual worked with ammonia? On the farm I was trusted to drive loaded trucks to town without a driver’s license but at the age of 18 was still strictly supervised while hooking and unhooking ammonia tanks. The danger in much much greater than gasoline.

 

[Unclepaul]

Perhaps Japan is working on Hybrids and other transportation solutions because they have very few of their own natural resources. They need to import most of their gas/oil/natural gas from other countries. China produces cheaper batteries because the CCP gives almost free money to companies developing advanced battery production technology.
US perhaps has the best home field advantage. Venture funding for promising technology, flexible customers and perhaps some of the most brilliant minds in the World. We have tremendous oil reserves and the technology to produce them.

 

[Ed243]

Ammonia fueled vehicles will have all the maintenance (probably more) of a gasoline internal combustion engine without the supporting infrastructure. This won't go anywhere. It will just be an oddity.

 

[EatsShoots]

My family used to be a diehard Toyota family. Their dealers basically forced me to look elsewhere which is what led me to Tesla. Gotta say I’m forever grateful for that and given Toyota‘s latest round of BS news releases I can’t see going back unless they really pull a rabbit outta their a$$!

I got my fourth Toyota in 22–rav4 hybrid. I’ve had nothing but amazing success with all of them. That said, it’s basically impossible to buy one new off the lot, and a few things on mine drive me crazy like the fact that by design only 70% of the heated steering wheel heats, and the lane assist/steer in mine is abject garbage and not safe at all. For some reason the fan speed on max is equivalent to every other car’s medium, and the babying alert beeps for seatbelts or open trunk are totally over the top.

 

[DrChaos]

Perhaps Japan is working on Hybrids and other transportation solutions because they have very few of their own natural resources. They need to import most of their gas/oil/natural gas from other countries.

it should be the other way around then---should be developing solar & nuclear to have independence.

 

[father_of_6]

Huh, I thought Toyota was all in with some other company on solid state batteries.

They're announcing to the EV crowd that they're innovating in the EV space, while touting to the rest of the world that some other ICE fuel is going to overtake EVs... and they've been doing this for years.

The motive is to slow EV adoption. Anyone looking at the numbers will see that it's *FAR* too late to prevent the EV takeover (we're at almost 10% of new cars), so they just want to slow it down so they can squeeze as much profit out of the ICE engine as possible.

At this point, I'd consider buying an ICE vehicle if it ran off the liquefied bodies of dead Toyota execs.

 

[gsmith123]

At this point, I'd consider buying an ICE vehicle if it ran off the liquefied bodies of dead Toyota execs.

Not too familiar w/ bio fuels, is this more efficient than ammonia?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Now, what about NH4 production? Well it apparently produces significant CO2. (Going off the post above for this, I don’t have actual numbers.) Gasoline requires some CO2 for production and then produces CO2 when used. Let’s call this a wash. Electricity produces varying amounts of CO2 depending on the source but can be as low as zero.

NH4 is potentially renewable so it wins over gasoline there. There are some techniques to synthesize petroleum products but they’re not commercially viable at this point. Like CO2, electricity‘s renewability depends on the source but it’s potentially 100% renewable.

How about transportation/distribution? NH4 requires tankers or pipelines to physically transport it, similar to gasoline, except you need to transport triple the amount. NH4 is a clear loser here. Electricity is more easily transportable and scalable than either NH4 or gasoline With the caveat that you need transmission lines that can be a significant upfront investment.

I think ammonia is more realistic.

As with hydrogen, I think the only way you'd scale it would be in PHEVs.