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The Cybertruck is more expensive to supercharge than a Ford F-150 costs in gas
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ChiefRollo
Member
Yes, and along with that change a shift to include among other things (Elon see Tesla as 12 start-up's or so in one entity) energy harvest and storage solutions. Yet we treat it as a General Motors. My home charging cost for instance having adopted Tesla' solar panels (that costs the same monthly amount as I had been paying for electricity) over 5 years ago has been free.
gtae07
Member
General cost of living (housing, taxes, food, etc) are also generally lower, as are incomes, but car prices don't vary as much by location. I look at the "low income" level for a family in San Francisco and that would be pretty darn good money down here. What seems to someone in the urban northeast or west coast to be a reasonably-priced car may be expensive in most of the South. Cars may also last longer down here because we don't see much winter weather--and consequently, little rust by comparison to more northern areas. My previous daily driver for the last couple years was old enough to vote by the time I sold it, and it was still in pretty good condition.
Yes, the electricity is cheaper, but the up-front costs aren't. And the lower fuel prices erase some of the savings the low electricity prices would otherwise give you.
True, it is but one factor in a different EV adoption rate... but it's still a factor.
Yes, you do have a point there--best to not spend even a single dime on solar panels when we can just continue to dump GHG's until the planet is unlivable. (Even if the payback period for the panels is remarkably short; we just shouldn't spend money on things as unimportant as this.)
Some things are worth spending money on, but leaving a usable planet for future generations? Not going to happen--we have our priorities and it's the person that has the most in the uHaul truck following his/her hearse that is the winner!
Truly amazing that even on TMC Forums, where one would expect to find people that are at least mildly informed, there is STILL so much stunning ignorance of the pending doom we have created for ourselves.
I find it mind blowing.
Pathetic. Perhaps our species really doesn't deserve this planet after all:
Too bad the Wealthy and the Politicians don't practice what they preach. People order from Amazon every day. How much Jet Fuel does Amazon use everyday to deliver those packages? How many Diesel Semis transport goods in Amazon Trailers? These Politicians and Wealthy drive around in Gas Guzzling G Wagons and Suburbans. Did the Obamas put Solar Panels on their gigantic Mansion? When will the Presidential Motor Fleet be all Electric? People are gluing themselves to roads to protest Oil but the Glues they are using are made from OIL. God forbid they don't get their Amazon packages the same day it's ordered. I guess Zoom calls are only for the Lower Classes.
How many of these Cars will be Electric
www.epikdrives.com
How many of these Cars will be Electric
WEF 2024🇨🇭 Limousine Service [Davos]
Book your 24/7 chauffeured limousines transportation needs for Davos and Zurich during the 2024 World Economic Forum.
www.epikdrives.com
tradosaurus
Member
So spend $40-$100K on solar panels to save the planet? Where are you going to bury these solar panels when they become unusable? How is spending money to save money a viable option? Do you understand how solar panels work?
If you want to "save" the planet go to India and China and try curb their pollution since that is the majority of the worlds problems.
First, you are moving the goalposts. You claimed that you could charge your Tesla 95% for free and I just politely pointed out that your solar panels are in fact, not free at all.
I've shopped and ran the numbers on Solar Panels, not even exaggerating, with 15+ companies, on 2 homes, over a period of years as I'd love to be somewhat off the grid. I've also deep dove into self-install panels as well as have a good friend that manages a solar company and has offered a small system at cost to me, around $13K for the whole system as I recall.
Rather panels save the planet or not is debatable as some numbers say that to build a solar panel takes more energy than it will produce in a lifetime. So really all you are doing is 'buying' your energy in China where it is extraordinarily cheap and dirty and then getting it back in CA or where ever where it's expensive.
I'm going to give you the very basic version of the math, although I've ran it many different ways. Basically, where I live electricity is cheap at 11 cents a kwh and this is critical. If I take the exact same money that I was considering spending on panels and send it to say my home loan (most conservative guaranteed 100% payback investment I can make) at the point where the solar panels have saved me the exact same amount on money on electricity as they cost me to purchase, that same money investment sent to my home loan would have saved somewhere around 250% of that amount. So basically, to get $13K of electricity from solar panels, cost me about $30K. And the losses just keep mounting from there.
I've had people say, well my house is paid off so that doesn't matter. Great, cause now you can invest that solar panel money in a balanced fund and make a LOT more money.
So you see, solar panels will never pay simply because money has a time quotient. For example, $10K today is equal to $17K in 10 years, and so on.
If solar panels drop about 70% in cost, they could be close to break even in my market. Conversely if my cost of electricity approximately triples, then panels would break even in my market.
The day that I can have a solar system at $0 DP, and the monthly payment is exactly equal to the amount I save on electricity cost every month, and that loan can be paid off in a reasonable amount of time before I move/ die/ replace the roof/ panels age out, then solar panels will make sense HERE. But until then, they are a HUGE money loser for a private residence (doesn't mean done in mass by the utility company, they might not be a better value as scale reduces costs).
The amount of homes that have solar panels with old crappy windows, poor insulation. old appliances including an AC unit over 10 years, shows how out of touch with reality people are. Hell, some have incandescent lightbulbs! Updating all of those items has an infinitely better payback than solar panels.
Not to even mention poor energy management with doors open, AC cranking all day with no one home, etc.
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You need to turn off your Fox "News" and One America channels and get away from the EV and Solar FUD: this is common BS spread in those circles:
Rather panels save the planet or not is debatable as some numbers say that to build a solar panel takes more energy than it will produce in a lifetime.
Surely you know when you're being played for a fool, right? This was a huge part of a fake documentary a year or three back, and it was fully debunked. I'd post the links but there are more powerful links below; feel free to Google search to find the debunking of that BS "mockumentary" as there were plenty . . . .
But, for argument's sake, let's assume the horror is true (which it really isn't): Solar Panels would COST YOU MONEY and your "payback" would take DECADES, and they're "DIRTY" from all that Chinese energy it took to produce them!?!
Oh my! Let's just start with money . . . .
How dare it cost you money out of your pocket to stop dumping so much GHG's! Crazy! Yes, the ethical and moral thing to do is to keep your externalities forever--those are costs borne by others . . . because you'll be six feet under by the time the planet is destroyed?
Glad previous generations thought of us in the same manner--not.
Look, in our case we pay a lousy $0.07 (yes, seven cents) per kWh, and we got our solar panels from SolarCity anyway. Despite the low cost, our system "paid for itself" in about 15 months back in 2013/14; here's how:
1. House electric bill: ~$2,300/year
2. Two non-EV's in the garage: ~$4k in gasoline/year
3. Total annual cost for electric and gasoline: $6,300/year
In my personal case, after far too much time spent in the Middle East, and realizing my presence there had NOTHING to do with my supposed oath to "defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic," I got out of the US Air Force ASAP.
After realizing we were in bed with some of the most vile people on the planet all because of our addiction to fossil fuels, the move to a near zero fossil fuel life was a no-brainer.
In 2013/14 we installed a SolarCity PV array via a ONE-payment, 20-year lease: $8,000 total (a really good deal, but it still would have been done if it has cost two or three times as much as the numbers are just too good, regardless of the ethical and moral reasons to switch).
We then replaced both of the GHG-dumpers in the garage with two Teslas, which gave us a payback of just over a year as our electric bill went down to ~$40 PER YEAR, and we were effectively "driving on sunlight." After that payoff/payback point we were pocketing a nice round $6,000+ every year in avoided costs--no more gasoline and nearly zero conventional/grid power.
A few years later: bye bye to the methane meter on the side of the house and we transitioned to fully electric: heat pumps for HVAC, water heaters, etc.
Does it now cost a hair more now that we're not paying for leaky methane? Perhaps.
But we don't give a damn. Leaving a usable planet for future generations is a moral obligation, one that I would hope that more, especially here, would share.
Perhaps if you were aware of just how billions of people around the globe are being played for fools the anger would get you, and others, to step up and get solar panels, EV's, and ditch their methane meters?
It's a hope.
Recommend watching this documentary series as it's got the actual emails and docs from those that helped plan the scam; it's damning:
The Power of Big Oil | FRONTLINE
Watch FRONTLINE's three-part documentary examining the fossil fuel industry’s history of casting doubt and delaying action on climate change.
www.pbs.org
[WARNING: It may make your blood boil. (If not, check to see if you still have a pulse.)]
Please allow me to further enrage you: the entire fossil fuel industry pocketed a nice $11 BILLION a day in profits in 2022. That's why there's so much EV and Solar FUD: every single day they keep the masses stopping at their local fossil fuel purveyor, and writing checks to their power company, is worth a MASSIVE chunk of change:
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/W63BOIZUBBMSJJJSZWSXCNCLLI.jpg)
Oil and gas industry earned $4 trillion last year, says IEA chief
The global oil and gas industry's profits in 2022 jumped to some $4 trillion from an average of $1.5 trillion in recent years, the head of the International Energy Agency (IEA), Fatih Birol, said on Tuesday.
www.reuters.com
The time to get off that treadmill was yesterday as we are soooo close to getting to tipping points where it will be too late to fix the damage done over the past century plus of unchecked GHG dumping:
But it's a free country.
You're free to do NOTHING, to keep dumping GHG's as much as you like because (horror!) it MIGHT cost you an extra $10 or $100 a month or some other silly number (perhaps even a negative number) to drop your GHG dumping to near-zero.
Your children and grandchildren will certainly be curious as to why, in the face of overwhelming evidence of the coming planetary-scale train wreck, you couldn't be bothered to make even the smallest change to leave them a livable planet . . . .
I really don't know how people will be able to answer those questions.
In the interim, sure, keep buying and burning fossil fuels and you're voting for the future you want; I just hope you'll reconsider your choices when you're more aware of the implications and the 11 BILLION reasons there is soooo much push to keep the status quo.
“Every time you spend money, you're casting a vote for the kind of world you want.”
― Anna Lappep.s. See also:
In California, you can use grid as free storage. I am with NEM2.0, so I pay $10/month grid fee, and 2-3 cents delivery fee for every kWh I send to grid and use later. And we do yearly billing.
Let's say I genated 10k kWh, I used 5000 kWh directly, and those 5000 kWh sent to grid was used later when there is no sun shine. So I pay $120 grid fee and $125 delivery fee. My total cost is $250 per year. In my specific case, my system generates almost 12k kWh and I have some surplus. So I pay less than $200 yearly.
PG&E price is 35 cents for tier 1 now, so my neighbors are paying $3000-$6000 a year.
You need to turn off your Fox "News" and One America channels and get away from the EV and Solar FUD: this is common BS spread in those circles:
Rather panels save the planet or not is debatable as some numbers say that to build a solar panel takes more energy than it will produce in a lifetime.
Surely you know when you're being played for a fool, right? This was a huge part of a fake documentary a year or three back, and it was fully debunked. I'd post the links but there are more powerful links below; feel free to Google search to find the debunking of that BS "mockumentary" as there were plenty . . . .
But, for argument's sake, let's assume the horror is true (which it really isn't): Solar Panels would COST YOU MONEY and your "payback" would take DECADES, and they're "DIRTY" from all that Chinese energy it took to produce them!?!
Oh my! Let's just start with money . . . .
How dare it cost you money out of your pocket to stop dumping so much GHG's! Crazy! Yes, the ethical and moral thing to do is to keep your externalities forever--those are costs borne by others . . . because you'll be six feet under by the time the planet is destroyed?
Glad previous generations thought of us in the same manner--not.
Look, in our case we pay a lousy $0.07 (yes, seven cents) per kWh, and we got our solar panels from SolarCity anyway. Despite the low cost, our system "paid for itself" in about 15 months back in 2013/14; here's how:
1. House electric bill: ~$2,300/year
2. Two non-EV's in the garage: ~$4k in gasoline/year
3. Total annual cost for electric and gasoline: $6,300/year
In my personal case, after far too much time spent in the Middle East, and realizing my presence there had NOTHING to do with my supposed oath to "defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic," I got out of the US Air Force ASAP.
After realizing we were in bed with some of the most vile people on the planet all because of our addiction to fossil fuels, the move to a near zero fossil fuel life was a no-brainer.
In 2013/14 we installed a SolarCity PV array via a ONE-payment, 20-year lease: $8,000 total (a really good deal, but it still would have been done if it has cost two or three times as much as the numbers are just too good, regardless of the ethical and moral reasons to switch).
We then replaced both of the GHG-dumpers in the garage with two Teslas, which gave us a payback of just over a year as our electric bill went down to ~$40 PER YEAR, and we were effectively "driving on sunlight." After that payoff/payback point we were pocketing a nice round $6,000+ every year in avoided costs--no more gasoline and nearly zero conventional/grid power.
A few years later: bye bye to the methane meter on the side of the house and we transitioned to fully electric: heat pumps for HVAC, water heaters, etc.
Does it now cost a hair more now that we're not paying for leaky methane? Perhaps.
But we don't give a damn. Leaving a usable planet for future generations is a moral obligation, one that I would hope that more, especially here, would share.
Perhaps if you were aware of just how billions of people around the globe are being played for fools the anger would get you, and others, to step up and get solar panels, EV's, and ditch their methane meters?
It's a hope.
Recommend watching this documentary series as it's got the actual emails and docs from those that helped plan the scam; it's damning:
The Power of Big Oil | FRONTLINE
Watch FRONTLINE's three-part documentary examining the fossil fuel industry’s history of casting doubt and delaying action on climate change.www.pbs.org
[WARNING: It may make your blood boil. (If not, check to see if you still have a pulse.)]
Please allow me to further enrage you: the entire fossil fuel industry pocketed a nice $11 BILLION a day in profits in 2022. That's why there's so much EV and Solar FUD: every single day they keep the masses stopping at their local fossil fuel purveyor, and writing checks to their power company, is worth a MASSIVE chunk of change:
Oil and gas industry earned $4 trillion last year, says IEA chief
The global oil and gas industry's profits in 2022 jumped to some $4 trillion from an average of $1.5 trillion in recent years, the head of the International Energy Agency (IEA), Fatih Birol, said on Tuesday.
The time to get off that treadmill was yesterday as we are soooo close to getting to tipping points where it will be too late to fix the damage done over the past century plus of unchecked GHG dumping:
But it's a free country.
You're free to do NOTHING, to keep dumping GHG's as much as you like because (horror!) it MIGHT cost you an extra $10 or $100 a month or some other silly number (perhaps even a negative number) to drop your GHG dumping to near-zero.
Your children and grandchildren will certainly be curious as to why, in the face of overwhelming evidence of the coming planetary-scale train wreck, you couldn't be bothered to make even the smallest change to leave them a livable planet . . . .
I really don't know how people will be able to answer those questions.
In the interim, sure, keep buying and burning fossil fuels and you're voting for the future you want; I just hope you'll reconsider your choices when you're more aware of the implications and the 11 BILLION reasons there is soooo much push to keep the status quo.
“Every time you spend money, you're casting a vote for the kind of world you want.”
― Anna Lappe
p.s. See also:
I'm not here to argue about your math, however I know that my math is correct for my circumstances. I've also found that people often grotesquely exaggerate how much they spend on fuel and maintenance around here.
Furthermore I chose to avoid all the political bits at this time. Primarily because the title of the thread was regarding fueling costs of the CT, not politics.
This is obviously impossible.
The impact of any materials used and their net impact on the environment is a bigger topic, but even in New York where I am, my average electricity production of the panels, each of which is 19 square feet, is 344 kWh per panel. Over a 20 year period of it decreasing over time let's say 5 megawatts, or maybe $700 at my electricity rates of $.14/per. You can't tell me it costs anywhere near 5 megawatts of energy to make this, and if it did how is a $350 panel including hundreds of dollars in energy to produce, not even including materials and manufacturing labor?
By the way a SEPARATE topic is where solar panels pay for themselves, and your math may be sound. My $12.5k system got me, after tons of tax credits, a 11.5 kWh system and I figure break even is in the vicinity of 7 years or so. I got two other bids on it, and both of the others were too expensive to bother with. I know some people have paid $30,40k for a system of this size and it will never pay for itself.
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To be honest I've basically given up on all this green theater. I had a sea change after learning that virtually none of my "recycling" ends up recycled; it almost all ends up either burned for energy or put in a landfill. I've noticed also all my extra garbage bags end up in our recycling bin; it's all going to land fill and nobody cares. Like just as a matter of course now I have a recycling bin pickup and a garbage pickup (two trucks, same day) and any extra garbage bags go into the recycling truck. I can order the tiniest, most robust item from amazon and there's a good chance it will come in a box with extra packaging. This stuff is a big joke and we're all in on it. I got a fast food meal a few days ago and it came with damn near an inch thick tuft of napkins, none of which I used, and all of which are pending delivery to the landfill now.Too bad the Wealthy and the Politicians don't practice what they preach. People order from Amazon every day. How much Jet Fuel does Amazon use everyday to deliver those packages? How many Diesel Semis transport goods in Amazon Trailers? These Politicians and Wealthy drive around in Gas Guzzling G Wagons and Suburbans. Did the Obamas put Solar Panels on their gigantic Mansion? When will the Presidential Motor Fleet be all Electric? People are gluing themselves to roads to protest Oil but the Glues they are using are made from OIL. God forbid they don't get their Amazon packages the same day it's ordered. I guess Zoom calls are only for the Lower Classes.
How many of these Cars will be Electric
WEF 2024🇨🇭 Limousine Service [Davos]
Book your 24/7 chauffeured limousines transportation needs for Davos and Zurich during the 2024 World Economic Forum.
Until we are serious as a society--and I mean no more trifling talk about plastic grocery bags or paper straws, but truly serious--most of what we're doing is pissing on a bonfire, IMO.
It's a worthwhile thought. Maybe if not for amazon we'd be driving around burning more gas, and amazon just more plainly shows what horrific consumers we actually are.
I'm quite sure that, overall, this is completely true. While I hate Amazon and most online purchasing (I like to feel and see what I'm buying), I'm quite sure that an Amazon truck driving from a distribution center with a full load of junk and visiting maybe 100 close-together houses and businesses uses a lot less fuel than a Walmart truck driving from a distribution center to a retail Walmart that is an average of 10 miles from most of its customers, then each of those 100 customers loading up the old Griswold-mobile (or land-yacht SUV) with the rugrats and driving an average of 10 round-trip miles to buy a few nicknacks.
Amazon: 100 miles * 12 mpg highway + ~10 delivery miles * 8 mpg = ~9.5 gallon
Walmart: 100 miles * 12 mpg highway + 100 * 20 miles *20 mpg = ~108 gallon
Sure, combining purchases at Walmart may reduce the number of trips compared with 1 Amazon drop-off per item but I suspect there is still a big benefit to the delivery.
Of course, electrification changes the dynamics for both but I suspect the consumption is still less for delivery.
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