This thread is to specifically discuss the implications of Tesla's new grid storage business, as opposed to debate the particulars of SuperSwapping vs SuperCharging. Elon announced grid storage during the conference call on SuperChargers, so we can be certain that it is a reality.
He did not discuss the business aspect of it, which is our task here. Everyone needs to be clear, the amount of revenue potential for this business probably dwarfs any potential auto manufacturing business. Building electric cars will allow Tesla to bootstrap a capability that will eventually produce mind boggling revenues as the fleet of Tesla's grows into the millions or tens of millions.
Here is the patent that describes the management architecture for Tesla's new Grid Storage Business -
METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR EXTENDING LIFETIME FOR RECHARGEABLE STATIONARY ENERGY STORAGE DEVICES - Patent application
Here is the section linking this patent to SuperSwappers, but this patent is completely agnostic on architecture -
Read more: METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR EXTENDING LIFETIME FOR RECHARGEABLE STATIONARY ENERGY STORAGE DEVICES - Patent application
The words "Metal-Air" are also in the patent. Any mention of that is off topic. This thread is about the business of grid storage. Same goes for SuperSwappers/SuperChargers or any other car related architecture.
Battery chemistry is relevant in terms of capacity, rechargability and life-cycle.
Here are background resources for competing uses, whether to support SuperChargers or SuperSwappers. The grid storage business is the same regardless -
Randy Carlson's post on the economics of how grid storage can make buckets of money for Tesla in the context of SuperChargers -
SuperCharging Tesla - Seeking Alpha
I've posted quickie models describing roughly the same thing at threads all over TMC, only in the context of SuperSwappers. I'm not going to link to all of them, but the best stuff is probably in the speculation thread on what the mystery announcement was (posted before we found the reference to swapping in the 8k) with my first post here, and discussion continuing forward until after the 8k was discovered -
I then went on to describe more in detail how this would work further up the thread.
This concept then was discussed extensively in Citizen-T's thread, which was started after the reference in the 8k was found, where the architecture of the system was then debated -
- - - Updated - - -
Fearless prediction. Tesla will finance these the same way that Solar City does with Solar Power installations. CDO's.
He did not discuss the business aspect of it, which is our task here. Everyone needs to be clear, the amount of revenue potential for this business probably dwarfs any potential auto manufacturing business. Building electric cars will allow Tesla to bootstrap a capability that will eventually produce mind boggling revenues as the fleet of Tesla's grows into the millions or tens of millions.
Here is the patent that describes the management architecture for Tesla's new Grid Storage Business -
METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR EXTENDING LIFETIME FOR RECHARGEABLE STATIONARY ENERGY STORAGE DEVICES - Patent application
Here is the section linking this patent to SuperSwappers, but this patent is completely agnostic on architecture -
A context for one implementation is use of rechargeable Li-ion battery packs designed for plug-in electric vehicles (PH:EV, HEV, and EV and the like) as community energy storage (CES).
Read more: METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR EXTENDING LIFETIME FOR RECHARGEABLE STATIONARY ENERGY STORAGE DEVICES - Patent application
The words "Metal-Air" are also in the patent. Any mention of that is off topic. This thread is about the business of grid storage. Same goes for SuperSwappers/SuperChargers or any other car related architecture.
Battery chemistry is relevant in terms of capacity, rechargability and life-cycle.
Here are background resources for competing uses, whether to support SuperChargers or SuperSwappers. The grid storage business is the same regardless -
Randy Carlson's post on the economics of how grid storage can make buckets of money for Tesla in the context of SuperChargers -
SuperCharging Tesla - Seeking Alpha
I've posted quickie models describing roughly the same thing at threads all over TMC, only in the context of SuperSwappers. I'm not going to link to all of them, but the best stuff is probably in the speculation thread on what the mystery announcement was (posted before we found the reference to swapping in the 8k) with my first post here, and discussion continuing forward until after the 8k was discovered -
Swapping is a huge investment and part of the reason I knew Better Place was going to fail. I hope that's not what Elon is talking about.
I dunno about that. My reason for thinking Better Place was going to fail was the terrible cars they were offering along with how much they were shafting the consumer with their shady battery lease. If you looked at the car, and did the math it was just an incredibly bad deal all the way around.
In contrast, I did do some work on modeling a Model S battery swap program, modeling it on "In-Bay Automated Car Wash" systems like you see at a typical gas station. The capital costs weren't that bad, and you only need maybe 1,000 batteries to supply 100 stations. The biggest ongoing cost is you need a small fleet of trucks to constantly rebalance the battery inventory, and workers to do the balancing.
I even have toyed with patenting some of the mechano-logistical elements of the model I came up with. If Tesla is actively considering this I'd suggest they call me and see if any of my thoughts are of value to them.
- - - Updated - - -
Man, you guys have all hyped this up to unbelievable levels such that any real announcement will seem like a disappointment.
It is sure to be some cool feature or other, but nothing on the order battery swapping or exotic new batteries!
Yes, I pretty much agree, but Elon is making it hard not to dream with the tweets he is sending out.
- - - Updated - - -
Assuming it is battery swaps (which I'm pretty convinced of at this point), it seems like one of the bigger questions is how it interacts with the supercharger network.
From the 10K, one of the risks to acceptance they list is:
"our capability to rapidly swap out the Model S battery pack and the development of specialized public facilities
to perform such swapping, which do not currently exist but which we may introduce sometime in 2013;"
And from another section:
"In addition, we designed Model S to incorporate a modular battery pack in the floor of the vehicle, enabling it to be rapidly
swapped out at certain of our service centers and specialized commercial battery exchange facilities that we anticipate may be available in the
future. "
So, sounds like they're introducing the facilities, including some at existing service centers. The use of the word "commercial" makes me think that the swaps won't be free like the supercharges. Maybe they're setting up superchargers as the baseline for shorter weekend trips and swaps as the premium solution for really hauling cross-country?
I feel like I'm going a bit beyond what the evidence shows, but what's the point of a forum if not speculation?
No, that was my assumption when I looked at this last year. Tesla will clearly charge for battery swap.
I then went on to describe more in detail how this would work further up the thread.
This concept then was discussed extensively in Citizen-T's thread, which was started after the reference in the 8k was found, where the architecture of the system was then debated -
Battery swapping is coming. There is little doubt at this point that part 5 of Elon's trilogy is battery swapping.
Now, I know there are a number of threads that are discussing this, and debating the pros and cons of swapping, and arguing about whether or not it is a good idea. The fact of the matter is, none of that matters. Apparently they have found a way to make it work. So, I don't want to rehash any of those old arguments in this thread. I want to figure out what Elon and company know. If he found a way to make this work, then there is no reason we can't figure it out too. Let's do what we do best and scoop his announcement.
Let's start with what we know about Elon's strategy for dealing with these things. It seems to me that the way Elon attacks a problem is that he first studies the opposing arguments. He compiles them all together, then he ranks them and begins knocking out each leg of the argument one at a time. That's what this 5-part trilogy is all about after all: he's taking the bear case against Tesla and attacking each point one at a time.
So, let's do the same. Let's compile together the list of arguments against battery swapping, then let's figure out what Tesla could be doing to "solve" these problems.
This is what I've got to start. Let me know if I should add anything.
- Swapping is too expensive
- They need to have a ton of batteries on hand (to be able to handle the worst case) but most of the time they are sitting around doing nothing.
- Why would they bother building out the Supercharger network if they are going to do swapping too?
- I take really good care of my battery, I don't want to end up with someone else's random battery.
- Swapping stations are too mechanically complex, would be a pain to maintain.
So, let's compile some potential answers to each of these arguments. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree with these arguments or not, it only matters that some do. If anyone believes these things, they are an argument worth squashing in Elon's book (think about the bricked battery thing).
The Answer (a work in progress)
The Tesla Battery Swapping Network will be a subset of the Supercharger Network. This means that all battery swap stations will also be supercharging stations, but not all supercharging stations will be battery swap stations. The highest traffic supercharger stations will be selected for upgrade to battery swap stations to reduce the amount of time the average person needs to wait.
The stations will only have a limited number of batteries. Owners will be able to reserve a battery for up to 30 mins before their arrival at the station via their smartphone app or the center console in their Model S. This balances the desire of the owner to know ahead of time how long they will need to stop for with the station's goal to not have reserved batteries sitting idle when other owners could be using them. This also gives the station enough time to Supercharge a battery for the owner and have it ready just in time for the owner to swap.
If an owner is unable to reserve a battery, then they will need to use the superchargers that are available at the station. This should only occur when traveling at peak times and only for a minority of owners visiting the station.
There will be a per-use cost for battery swapping. This helps to offset the cost of maintenance on the stations, but more importantly, creates an economic incentive for owners to use the free Superchargers if they are planning on stopping for a while anyway. Tesla is trying to avoid having owners swap their battery, then immediately park to go use the restroom and grab a bite to eat. The Supercharger would have worked just fine for their use case, and a small fee is probably enough to make them behave in the way that we want.
Tesla already has the cheapest battery packs around, and by increasing their production of packs for these stations, they'll get even greater price reductions for the cells that they purchase for the packs (and other economies of scale). Furthermore, once they demonstrate the ability to battery swap, the Model S becomes eligible for even more ZEV credits per car. The added revenue from selling these credits also helps to offset the cost to build these stations. Finally, batteries at the station will not be sitting idle. They will store energy collected by the onsite solar arrays or the grid during times of low use and then they'll be drawn from for Supercharging (assuming they have not been reserved by an incoming owner). This will help reduce the operating cost of the superchargers.
Because Tesla warranties all batteries against anything at all (except intentional tampering) there is no reason to be concerned about what battery you end up with in your car. You can feel perfectly confident that your battery will perform and Tesla will take care of it if it doesn't.
Alright. That's what I've got so far. Please contribute your own ideas or rip into mine. I'll update this story to reflect what I think are the best ideas emerging from the discussion.
- - - Updated - - -
Fearless prediction. Tesla will finance these the same way that Solar City does with Solar Power installations. CDO's.