Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[mongo]

How do the new model 3s prices compare to the previous?

They are the same in the US.

 

[Knightshade]

That's not going to fly with the IRS...

Sure it will- it's been happening since early last year.

What you quote is some kind of "below FMV" buyout.... that's not this.

This is simply you have the option to buy out your lease for "full" price and do it early, and exercise the option to purchase the vehicle.

That's been a standard thing on leases forever.

Just not Tesla leases.

Get Around EV Incentive Restrictions with Lease Buyouts

Learn how to use loopholes around leases and lease buyouts to circumvent EV tax credit restrictions and increase your savings.

evlife.co

Before you make your first lease payment, get the buyout price from your lease agreement (i.e. the remaining lease balance). Typically, the price of the buyout will be MSRP + leasing fees + any government fees

So you're full FMV buyout price, plus some fees. But those fees are a LOT less than the $7500 you're saving.

 

[Krugerrand]

Well done, Costco. Take good note, Tesla.

Why the warning? What has Tesla done to indicate they’re doing something wrong regarding employees? How does it relate to what Costco did wrong? You must know something otherwise there’s no reason for a ‘take good note, Tesla’ warning.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Black CaT's look better in the shade.



Cheers to the 'rappers!

 

[mongo]

So you're full FMV buyout price, plus some fees. But those fees are a LOT less than the $7500 you're saving.

And how is that in any way not "other terms/provisions in the lease that economically compel the lessee to acquire the vehicle at the end of the lease term"?

If the terms are such that people end up buying the car (expecially if under 30 days) it's a lease in name only (LINO).
Further, the company did sell the vehicle, not lease it, thus invalidating the credit provisions.

Q5. Is a taxpayer that leases clean vehicles to customers as its business eligible to claim the qualified commercial clean vehicle credit? (added December 29, 2022)
A5. Whether a taxpayer can claim the qualified commercial clean vehicle credit in its business depends on who is the owner of the vehicle for federal income tax purposes. The owner of the vehicle is determined based on whether the lease is respected as a lease or recharacterized as a sale for federal income tax purpose

Q7. What happens if the clean vehicle lease agreement is recharacterized as a sale for tax purposes? (added December 29, 2022
A7. In the event the clean vehicle lease is recharacterized as a sale, the lessee would need to determine if they are eligible to claim either a clean vehicle credit or a qualified commercial vehicle credit. The lessor would not be eligible to claim either credit because they would have engaged in a resale of the vehicle.

Better fodder for
EV and Battery Credits

 

[2daMoon]

Why the warning? What has Tesla done to indicate they’re doing something wrong regarding employees? How does it relate to what Costco did wrong? You must know something otherwise there’s no reason for a ‘take good note, Tesla’ warning.

When I read the post I took it to mean that by admitting their shortcomings, Costco emphasized how the Tesla method of being proactive with providing employees more than a union can offer, with none of the hassles, is the way to go. Costco regretted not doing so and recognized it as a management problem rather than an employee/union problem.

I took this as more of a "Tesla, take note, you're setting the example for others to follow. Keep doing what you're doing." than a warning.

Whether or not that was the intent when posted, I can't say.

 

[scaesare]

That can't be true.
You must be lying.

 

[Knightshade]

And how is that in any way not "other terms/provisions in the lease that economically compel the lessee to acquire the vehicle at the end of the lease term"?

If you buy it out after 15 days, or after 3 years, you pay the same price for the actual car.

So nothing is "economically compelling you" to acquire it at end of term. In fact you're acquiring it BEFORE end of term.

Further, the company did sell the vehicle, not lease it, thus invalidating the credit provisions.

Not remotely, no.

The law, far as I can tell, has no provision whatsoever for WHEN you buy out a lease. It's bog standard to be able to do so after the 24, 36, 48, whatever month terms. Has been forever (not for Tesla, but near everyone else).

And there's nothing, legally, preventing you from doing it earlier if the lease terms allow it.

See again the kiplinger link- or a billion threads on reddit or leasehacker about people who've been doing this in large #s on every other brand of EV that never got the IRA credits, since early last year when it became possible.

 

[jerry33]

To me, the only reason to lease in the past was when the manufacturer incentivized the lease to cause it to be a 0% loan for 3 years, assuming the buyout was what the car was really supposed to be after 3 years. Then it becomes like a stock option: wait 3 years, and if it's still good, execute and buy it. But if a lot has changed and it doesn't make sense anymore (hello Nissan Leaf), then no loss, just hand it back.

Really do hope Tesla changes the buyout option in the end. I think it would really juice leases. Of course, this might be exactly why they don't allow it...

I would like to think that Tesla's decision to not let the lessee purchase the car at the end is because they care for their customers and don't want to see either without a car (because they no longer qualify for a new lease or loan) or have a large return payment (damage or excess miles). By making the lease less attractive to consumers, they are actually doing a good thing.

 

[jerry33]

Why the warning? What has Tesla done to indicate they’re doing something wrong regarding employees? How does it relate to what Costco did wrong? You must know something otherwise there’s no reason for a ‘take good note, Tesla’ warning.

From what I know about Costco (a friend's son works there as a forklift driver for the last five or six years) it's a very good place to work. Of course that might vary by location.

 

[Knightshade]

I would like to think that Tesla's decision to not let the lessee purchase the car at the end is because they care for their customers and don't want to see either without a car (because they no longer qualify for a new lease or loan) or have a large return payment (damage or excess miles). By making the lease less attractive to consumers, they are actually doing a good thing.

The claim at the time they announced they would not permit lease buyouts on the 3 (they DID allow it on the S/X at the time, and always had--- they later removed that ability) was they planned to use the off-lease 3s as robotaxis.

Please note, customers who choose leasing over owning will not have the option to purchase their car at the end of the lease, because with full autonomy coming in the future via an over-the-air software update, we plan to use those vehicles in the Tesla ride-hailing network.

Which of course still isn't a thing--- but it did help Teslas bottom line a fair bit when all those off-lease cars came back with 2017/2018 residual values, for Tesla to sell as used at 2021/2022 used car pricing.

 

[Musskiah]

And the Ludicrous Model 3 (LM3) waits in the wings until such time that Tesla can onshore the RWD/LR battery pack. LM3 is going be a beast, with 2 Plaid motors (carbon-wrapped 20K+ rpm SRPM), 680 hp and wot, 180 mph top end? (in 1st gear, no less!) And IRA-eligible FTW!

Well played, TESLA! Luv it!

Big ups to Dark Helmet for the inspiration! A sedan that beats a 911, at a fraction of the cost...while towing a 911! I remember seeing something about the Ludicrous badging. I hadn't considered DUAL carbon wrapped mamajamas. Take my money!!!!

 

[FreqFlyer]

IRA becoming less relevant; benefit still available to leasees. Nice.

Is This The Best EV Value On The Market? Tesla Model 3 Refresh In North America! | Out of Spec Podcast

Go to 16:30 minutes, again the question of Freemont build quality comes up. I hope the China guy who is head of production spends a lot of time there to get Freemont quality up to Shanghai's. If the tooling and robotics are the same there should be no excuse.

 

[Musskiah]

Tesla is keeping their hand close to their chest. No Gujarat Summit announcement.

Elon Musk-led Tesla not to announce India investment plans at Vibrant Gujarat Global Summit

Official says Gujarat govt more than happy to facilitate Tesla but investment is company's prerogative

www.google.com

 

[Drumheller]

From what I know about Costco (a friend's son works there as a forklift driver for the last five or six years) it's a very good place to work. Of course that might vary by location.

I agree. I've heard good things about how Costco treats its employees. I also thought the Costco response Audibon posted was classy. However, the situation for Tesla is more of an organization attempting to bully and threaten Tesla and its employees into signing their contract. The employees interviewed have said they are happy and do not want to join the union. Apples and oranges here.

 

[jkirkwood001]

I am. Is more than two years with my XC40:Recharge.e in Brazil. Not once have I had trouble finding working chargers. there is serious need for a standard database of all chargers. Latest challenge Rio de Janeiro to Porto Alegre. Mostly have multiple options on that route today. Big difference from two years ago. Nonauestion, we’re Tesla to come with Superchargers the world would improve rapidly, as it always does. I can still hope!

@unk45 a year ago you told us Google's embedded Android Auto in your Volvo was terrible (I think you used a spicier adjective!). What's the development there, if any? Maybe still no competitor to the Tesla OS, but is it more usable today? Put another way, is it no longer a reason not to buy a Volvo (or Polestar)?

Since then, my partner bought a 2023 Bolt, and I'm finding the OS (and app) passable. Again, not nearly as good as Tesla's, but a heck of a lot better than her past, non-connected ICE.

 

[jkirkwood001]

Introducing: Upgraded Model 3 | Tesla (6 hrs ago)

Tesla launches upgraded Model 3 in North America | Drive Tesla Canada

Tesla launches upgraded Model 3 in North America

Tesla has launched the upgraded Model 3 in North America, releasing the new design in Canada and the US just a few months after its debut in China, Europe, and Asia-Pacific markets last year. According […]

driveteslacanada.ca

Didn't see if anybody else already posted, but I got this email this morning:

 

[Buckminster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1745099401301819666

Reckon Powell is waiting for that magic 50% number...

 

[SOULPEDL]

I have been searching for an appropriate contribution to discussion regarding Tesla and organized labor. Not anything specific to Sweden or Scandinavia or Berlin or Fremont or a service center, but the company’s relationship with each of its employees.

I just came across something from one of my very oldest investments - tying with Starbucks in its longevity - Costco.

Last week, workers at Costco’s Norfolk, VA store voted to join the Teamsters. I am overwhelmed and, interestingly, rather excited and definitely pleased at management’s response. As my phantom presence on Tesla’s Board (remember: that exists solely in my head), I would be bringing this front and center for serious consideration. Here is what I read:

We're disappointed by the result in Norfolk.

We're not disappointed in our employees; we're disappointed in ourselves as managers and leaders.

The fact that a majority of Norfolk employees felt that they wanted or needed a union constitutes a failure on our part.


That is it. It is not an indictment concerning the stupidity or shortsightedness of workers over their lack of understanding how the company can serve the employees better than a union can; it is an admission that management has failed to communicate such a message.

Well done, Costco. Take good note, Tesla.

I'm not buying it fully. 18K Costco member are already in the Teamsters Union. Where was communication then? Maybe the Auto Unions are showing that noise has become a possible trend.

"The Teamsters union says it counts more than 18,000 Costco workers as members."​

I also can't find how many are part-time vs salary, so no idea if the 18K in the union is a lot or a little %.

Their only regret is likely that they didn't do enough to prevent it from spreading further and need to pray for mercy. I get it, tricky with Sams club right next door. But corporate is corporate and money talks.

I jam regularly with a Costco employee, so I'm gonna get more info (locally) on this soon. I might be premature in my assessment, but corporate greed is a sore spot for me. Ignorance doesn't cut it for me. I give limited credit for their "PR" approach to this issue.

 

[dhrivnak]

Here is Tesla doing ads:

People stopping to take pictures or even from a car used to happen all the time with the first generation Roadster.