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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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The Tesla materials group is full of level 99 wizards, so I wonder whether they can also change the color of stainless steel by changing the composition of the steel rather than applying a finish. You can change the color of steel by heating it to a certain temperature, of course. But that's probably not energy efficient enough just for a bit of aesthetic appeal.
Very possible to color stainless steel through a number of processes. They cost $ too, not sure how that compares to an expensive paint factory, probably more $/sf of coverage. But pretty cool look especially for a 21st century car company. Some examples (of many):

 
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If anyone is interesting in the competition of Optimus, here is a nice post:

Here is a channel with one of the companies robot doing lots of tasks:


imo pretty impressive ^^
Not impressive at all. It is Tele-Operation, otherwise it is being remote controlled by an operator.
It also says this in the description. Things like this have been done since the 1950's, using analog servos.
 
Has anyone done a transcript of ID2023?

What exactly was said about..


That is indeed an interesting nugget and it's exactly what we are all hoping for. But we need more details!
On the YouTube video, there is a transcript that follows the video. You can find the link right after Report (which is in the three dots ... on the right below the vid). In minimised view.

Hope that helps.
 
No arguments with any of the above. For a while in $DAY_JOB, I worked as a reliability engineer on Big_Honking_Telecom_Gear, where the failure of any one (or several) components would not bring the system down. Something about ATC and people being able to call the Fire Department 😁.

But that kind of reliability has costs. For the safety-critical stuff, we used to run 1+1 protection where two pieces of hardware and associated software would run in parallel, ideally switching in zero time in case of fault (Yes, one can do this kind of thing: Forward Error Correction to the fore!), but sometimes with a standby/active scheme where the standby would have to boot and become active in order to regain operation. (That works OK in the control plane, but not so much with clocks..)

It's one thing if one is talking about One Extra Card per shelf that's the standby: But doing this properly, especially around the core, involves duplicating entire shelves, cabling, and custom ASICs left, right, and center, sometimes more than doubling the cost of the overall system. In one notable case we managed to do a (1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2) protection scheme, which sounds evil, but resulted in a total card count that was something like 3/2x, rather than a 1+1 that would have been a card count of 2x. And what with FEC would manage to do hitless switch and survive a bunch of cards going bad at once.

But there's costs involved. Yep, one does not want the telecom network to barf and die when a single transistor gives up the ghost; between the FCC and other national telecom regulators and the companies they regulate, the world has a fairly reliable telecom network. Users pay through the nose for this, but get the chance to call the fire department in an emergency. And, yes, losing that capability would means Dead Bodies on the ground. There's Reasons I wear an Order of the Engineer ring on my pinkie.

So, great: Fun, safety critical stuff with a (nearly) unlimited budget to build duplicated remote controls on the flight surfaces of the shuttle; multiple redundant power supplies, multiple duplicated wiring harnesses. Don't forget the triplicated flight control computers; triplicated because if one has two, and the outputs aren't the same, how does one figure out which has failed in real-time? With three, one gets a vote-of-three algorithm. And the hardware to support all that was built in. (If I remember right, there were actually different software companies doing the algorithms on all all three computers, the idea being that if a coding error took down one computer, it wouldn't take down all three!) All of that jazz was justified since losing a space shuttle on approach would be a Bad Thing. And, no question, NASA has the chops to make that all happen. The things that took down Space Shuttles had nothing to do with any of that. But, man, the cost of all that!

So.. now we're talking a consumer-grade vehicles that get built in the millions. Tesla (and other car companies) have a maniacal focus on costs. There are the NHTSA, the SAE, and other national agencies that do like the FCC and mandate reliability and safety numbers. And now we talk about brakes.

Current brake techology is, as far as I know, somewhat resistant to single points of failure. Lose a brake line, down on the bottom of the body where hoses hang out and small tubes are exposed to road hazards? One might lose two wheels worth of braking, but the other two still work. Lose the power assist? Awkward, but doable muscle power makes the brakes still work.

Electric brakes... First thought that crosses my mind is lack of electrical power. Blow the Pyro fuse? Well, one still has the 12V/48V battery. But, if one is powered off that battery, and the fuseable link to the battery blows, where's the power for the brakes? Duplicated batteries? Um. Cost is creeping up. Controller with diode-ORd battery supply? How worried are we that the dual-diode might blow? In my experience, electronics over a large enough population (like millions of cars) are going to end up with a $RANDOM part that shorts out, like, say, on the controller board. So, duplicated controllers. Duplicated supplies. Separate power supplies for the actuators, with separate power wires going everywhere? Or batteries on each wheel? You guys can see where this is going.

It's probably not that one needs a gold-plated solution: Being safer than the (probable single-point failure mode of a hydraulic system) is probably doable, but at what cost? If it costs more to put that electric system in a Tesla than to stick with the hydraulics, Tesla will stick with the hydraulics.

As I said in the beginning of this discussion: I'm not adverse to the idea of an electric braking system. Inventive engineers can come up with amazing stuff. But, believe you me, I sure want to see what it is they come up with. And, just because airplanes can pull it off.. it's a different operating environment. We'll see.
No doubt it’s expensive. The shuttle is an example of money is no object (almost). There are actually five computers, four of which participate in voting. The fifth computer uses different software and is activated manually if all else fails. Voting conflicts are displayed to the crew and they can reconfigure the redundant set as necessary. Requires some training 😁
 
Absolutely correct imho. I recently spent 2 weeks in Quito. Ecuador is a country with numerous economic problems, however, there are economically vibrant areas throughout the city and we visited several spectacular restaurants (not extravagant). Having also lived in Cairo and Karachi, as well as Tokyo and Montreal, I’d say this is a worldwide phenomenon that varies country by country only in degree.
I know several Panamanians who bought a Tesla in Florida and had it shipped to Panamá. The demand is there.
 
Very possible to color stainless steel through a number of processes. They cost $ too, not sure how that compares to an expensive paint factory, probably more $/sf of coverage. But pretty cool look especially for a 21st century car company. Some examples (of many):

It looks like galvanized steel can be stamped.

So there are 4 potential alternatives.
  1. Ordinary steel - painted.
  2. Stainless steel - unpainted
  3. Aluminium - unpainted, painted or wrapped.
  4. Galvanised Steel - painted or wrapped.
I don't think galvanized steel would look good enough unpainted, but may be possible to achieve a reasonable end result.

Gen3 (some models) might come down to which one of the 4 above has the lowest "all in cost", the fastest production ramp and the lowest capex, there may be other alternatives.
 
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for those interested, here is my quick interpretation of recent price action:
TSLA is trading in tight range for last 16 trading days with lows in $186-$187 and highs in $214-217 range
7 out of last 8 weeks have closed positive
volume on up weeks markedly higher than one single down week
shorter term weekly and daily MAs already positively crossed
while TSLA could easily go sideways for another few weeks, it is highly likely, in my personal bullishly biased opinion, over next 12 to 16 weeks to possibly 2X in price which means $400+ by May-June, 2023 is quite possible
all above is highly speculative and i strongly advice not to use this personal opinion of mine as basis of any investment/speculative decision making for any investment or trading purpose.
not much more left to say-i will allow events to unfold over next several weeks
full disclaimer: as always, i am positioned highly bullishly in TSLA with some accounts 182% leveraged via margin
zero call options since i have no idea if and when my highly anticipated rally in TSLA might materialize.
if i am wrong, will be liquidating once get hit with margin calls and there is always potential risk of losing entire account
i have extremely high risk tolerance and nobody should follow my example and never use my personal opinion as investment advice
 
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Just from experience the more space between backseat kids equals the less I have to turn around and say "knock it off, or do I have to pull over?" ;)
You're lucky you didn't grow up in the 70s. Us 70's kids didn't have our dads telling us to knock it off. We had to quickly slide to the corner in attempt to avoid the arch of the swinging right hand trying to knock our heads off.
 
Some but certainly no expert. That aside what is your estimate for the number of cars Tesla will build in 2030? If 4m cars are reached by 2025 do you expect Tesla to increase that by another 16m in the next 5 years?

This is a simple excercise. Start with 0.5m produced in 2020, increase by 50%/yr to 2030. Here's a projection based on those 2 parameters:

Year​
Production (in Millions)​
2020​
0.50​
2021​
0.75​
2022​
1.13​
2023​
1.69​
2024​
2.53​
2025​
3.80​
2026​
5.70​
2027​
8.54​
2028​
12.81​
2029​
19.22​
2030​
28.83​

Why is this important? Tesla has to tell its suppliers anywhere from 6 months to 4 years in advance what quanities it will need. Especially for mines, this is a logistics and even political challenge.

You don't do that on a whim, it has to be carefully planned out and deliberately excecuted. "Pardon, may I have 80M tonnes of Li-Ion batteries next month? No, you're Ford." That's why Tesla has it's own engineers embedded with its suppliers, all the way down to Tier 6. Tesla even helps its suppliers with loan guarantees, subsidy sharing, and technology transfer.

Tesla said that production some years may be more, some years less, but the underlying goal of 50% annual growth rate over the long term has to be obvious to all players involved: "Get ready, cuz this train is leaving the station, and you don't want to miss it."
 
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On the YouTube video, there is a transcript that follows the video. You can find the link right after Report (which is in the three dots ... on the right below the vid). In minimised view.

Hope that helps.
Thanks @wipster. That did help me find the quote:

Here it is in the video starting at 3:54:55:

Elon says:
uh something that's uh I don't know if we touched on this much but in terms of
training we we have one of the biggest neural net Training Systems in the world and that
we expect to increase that capability by an order of magnitude by the end of this year
and probably another order of magnitude by the end of next year
with some combination of Nvidia and dojo so I'm not sure the scale of that is
quite um daunt on people it's enormous

I'd like to know exactly what Elon meant by increasing NN training capability by an order of magnitude. It seems "order of magnitude" is a term thrown around a lot. But if that's truly what is happening then we are all going to be very rich rather soon.
 
My weekend has been much more productive since I started seeing these messages popping up here...

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Hey, thought I'd share a post in the climate thread if interested. What I thought was odd (and I invite other views over there) is that Professor Guy McPherson didn't show up on any TMC forum page, nor did he mention Tesla in any of his Youtube posts. Do you know about him and does he know about us?

Sorry if I ramble a bit over there (save ya'all that much), but I had a very rough sleep last night due to some of his claims and IPCC disclosures - especially his recommendation for how to deal with an impending mass extinction, so he claims.
 
Hey, thought I'd share a post in the climate thread if interested. What I thought was odd (and I invite other views over there) is that Professor Guy McPherson didn't show up on any TMC forum page, nor did he mention Tesla in any of his Youtube posts. Do you know about him and does he know about us?

Sorry if I ramble a bit over there (save ya'all that much), but I had a very rough sleep last night due to some of his claims and IPCC disclosures - especially his recommendation for how to deal with an impending mass extinction, so he claims.
Sorry but I consider him a quack and very much out of the main stream. His past prognosis has not been on target. I am afraid he is as dangerious as those on the ulra right that think it is all a hoax.
 
Sorry but I consider him a quack and very much out of the main stream. His past prognosis has not been on target.
OT... Many say the same about Elon.🤷‍♂️ It's a purposeful style, got my attention, learned lots, donated.
FYI, my post is not just about him. He (and I) cite numerous sources to show that the alarm is continually ignored. Agree there?
 
I'd like to know exactly what Elon meant by increasing NN training capability by an order of magnitude. It seems "order of magnitude" is a term thrown around a lot. But if that's truly what is happening then we are all going to be very rich rather soon.
Today Tesla has a bunch of Tasks they want to run. For example training the FSD neural network, generate labels using Autolabel, development etc. Let's say a specific job takes 24h using the entire cluster today. In by the end of the year they will be able to do ~10 of those jobs in 24h on the cluster. By the end of 2024 they will be able to do ~100 of those jobs in 24h.

This is a combination of many things:
1. More and better compute hardware(Dojo, nVidia etc)
2. Better network, storage etc
3. Lots of software optimizations
4. More effecient neural net training methods

Basically Tesla will have the option of doing a combination of
1. Training the same tasks for longer on bigger datasets to improve performance
2. Training more iterations of the same task to try out more new architectures that are better, get more commits to their repository
3. Train larger models(HW4, Autolabel)
4. Add more tasks that need training(additional FSD networks, Semi/HW4/HW3 specific neural networks, Tesla Bot, factory cameras, autobidder, simulation etc)
 
FWIW, apart from Paraguay and some Central America, the rest do not import used cars in any significant numbers.
I should’ve verified that more before posting it. My fault.

As for sales volumes you’re looking at the last three years of depressed sales due to Covid19 and temporary market depression. Brazil alone produced almost three million cars in 2012, only 2.4 million in 2022. The numbers are highly variable, but Mercosur alone has high pent-up demand.
Likewise with the US and Canadian comparison numbers, which peaked pre-COVID at almost 19 million cars and light trucks sold. The point is that the new car market in North America (Mexico included) is approximately triple the market in South America, as measured by unit volume.

“Brazil alone” does almost 90% of car production in South America, so production there essentially is representative of the entire continent.


Of course your post reflects conventional wisdom.
Giga Mexico obviously will supply both North and South America, a bit elsewhere and certainly parts and other things such as Superchargers and other things.

All of this is speculation until we have solid Tesla information.
I’m not sure I even know what the conventional wisdom is on this topic; I’m just looking at macroeconomic statistics. Even if LatAm will grow demand from 6M to 8M vehicles per year, the 2M or more output from Giga Mexico would imply unprecedented market share for Tesla in any market except maybe Norway. It might happen, but it seems more likely that GigaMex will export a significant portion of production northward and a future factory in Brazil will be established.

Another factory in Brazil would also save quite a bit on shipping costs and is much closer to the lithium triangle and comes with many advantages for SpaceX as well. Monterrey is pretty far from wealthier S American countries like Brazil, Argentina and Chile, and the exports must cross the Gulf of Mexico with all its pesky hurricane disruptions.