Tesla getting ready to roll out a Level 2 Charging Network

[Larry Chanin]

Besides, this may become a moot point soon enough...Elon talked in Germany this week about 135kw superchargers being implemented in Germany soon and retroftitted elsewhere over time, which would further drop charge times; he also noted further improvements might be forthcoming (eventually).

Reducing the charging time by only around 10% is going to have little effect when hundreds of thousands of Teslas are on the roads. If Tesla is successful in achieving their target production rates for the Gen III car it will be very difficult to build additional Supercharging stations fast enough to avoid Supercharger congestion. That is why Elon continues to explore the feasibility of other revenue producing options to free Supercharging. The reports of the death of Battery Swapping have been greatly exaggerated. :wink:

I agee that in the short term the emphasis on EV infrastructure will continue to be Superchargers. However, soon photovoltaic arrays will be installed and if battery storage is installed with it demand charges can be mitigated. As stated in my previous message, Elon plans to do a feasibility study of battery swapping in California. Someone is going to have to be in charge of that infrastructure expansion. Even as a feasibility study its still an integral part of the Supercharger infrastructure. It is just logical that both of these battery storage initiatives that must be done as part of the Supercharger expansion would be managed by the same executive incharge of EV infrastructure regardless of what this sketchy job description says.

Larry

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Reducing the charging time by only around 10% is going to have little effect when hundreds of thousands of Teslas are on the roads. If Tesla is successful in achieving their target production rates for the Gen III car it will be very difficult to build additional Supercharging stations fast enough to avoid Supercharger congestion. That is why Elon continues to explore the feasibility of other revenue producing options to free Supercharging. The reports of the death of Battery Swapping have been greatly exaggerated. :wink:

I agree that in the short term the emphasis on EV infrastructure will continue to be Superchargers. However, soon photovoltaic arrays will be installed and if battery storage is installed with it demand charges can be mitigated. As stated in my previous message, Elon plans to do a feasibility study of battery swapping in California. Someone is going to have to be in charge of that infrastructure expansion. Even as a feasibility study its still an integral part of the Supercharger infrastructure. It is just logical that both of these battery storage initiatives that must be done as part of the Supercharger expansion would be managed by the same executive incharge of EV infrastructure regardless of what this sketchy job description says.

Larry

Honestly, I think that if Gen 3 hits target it'll become easier to get Superchargers installed. What business wouldn't want an endless stream of Tesla drivers dropping in for a gander at the merchandise/bite to eat/coffee/fruitcake? (Besides car dealerships? ) More chargers means more cost.

A 10% max-charging-speed increase could be very important for relieving congestion because it's front-loaded. No, it's not enough, but at high sales volumes, Tesla could narrow the gap between chargers. If they do that people can use the sweet range for charging speed. But, it's clear that Tesla aims to push the envelope on charging speed in order to minimize congestion. I'm sure the future solar shade and battery storage are both important in order to help support that.

And yes, there's always a battery swapping solution if necessary. Like car rental, but fast, friendly and fun.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Honestly, I think that if Gen 3 hits target it'll become easier to get Superchargers installed. What business wouldn't want an endless stream of Tesla drivers dropping in for a gander at the merchandise/bite to eat/coffee/fruitcake? (Besides car dealerships? ) More chargers means more cost.

The issue is not the increased ease in convincing host locations to permit Supercharger stations. I spoke to a Tesla executive in charge of Supercharger deployment and he confirmed that is already the case. The issue is, "Can Tesla realistically increase the number of Supercharger stations by an order of magnitude to accommodate an order of magnitude increase in Teslas on the roads?" I sincerely hope that they can.

However, in the event that such an increase is not feasible, its nice to know that building Swapping stations provides an additional option with a through put of over 10,000 rated miles per hour per station.

True, more chargers means more cost. I see that as a constraint to rapid expansion, not facilitator.

Larry

 

[evme]

I think Tesla should work with solar city to bundle charging with solar installations for commercial facilities. Most of the cost for level 2 chargers is in the human work, not the equipment. And if they are already doing wiring on the spot, the human work is going to be much cheaper as well.

As for ZEV credits goes, Tesla might be able to get to 15 minutes for 190 miles to get the Type 4 credits. Technically speaking all you need is a demonstration right? Tesla might be able to demonstrate even charging 300 miles in 15 minutes to get Type 5. It would kill the battery after maybe 10 fill ups but for a demonstration it would work fine. Though by the time they vote on removing the battery swaps, will the ZEV credits be even worth anything anymore until 2017? And definitely bull on 9 credits for hydrogen

As for congestion and building out superchargers. It is kind of hard to guess how the demand will be because we have nothing to compare it to. Most people are going to charge at home right? and at work right? So the people charging at the superchargers will only be those making long routes. Adding battery swaps makes little sense because the cost of the battery swaps will be way too expensive, on top of that Musk said Gen III and Model S will not share the same battery so swapping a Gen III becomes impossible. They may play with the idea but I think the end goal is to speed up the charging speed.

If Tesla improves the level 2 charging infrastructure which is extremely cheap compared to building out superchargers, many might prefer destination charges on their 100-250 mile trips rather then supercharging. That will also improve congestion.

Last thing to look at is if the Gen III sells that many cars, I see no reason why Tesla would not be able to quickly deploy more nodes. It is much easier and cheaper to negotiate more parking spaces rather then making new super charging stations from scratch.

 

[jcstp]

I think tesla can inspire itself from these 3 working FREE level 2 networks

Sun Country Highway

Home

ZeroNet - Zero Carbon World

 

[scaesare]

Hotels don't need HPWCs. Cheap NEMA 14-50s work just fine and would cost less actually than a free HPWC (since the HPWC needs higher current).

Is it common for other plug-in electrics to have a 14-50 adapter? I'd think that a hotel is going to want something that is relatively universal for guests. I'd actually suggest a high-amperage J1772 would be a better bet then a HWPC for most hotel needs.

Of course, that having been said, I'd love for hotels to take Elon up on his offer and have lots of HPWC's around as well.

 

[Cosmacelf]

When I started looking around for chargers installed at hotels, I was surprised to find that there aren't that many. Then I realized that the Model S is arguably the first car that most people would want to bring to a hotel - you have to have enough range first before you'll take your car on a road trip. So, yes, a J1772 is more universal, but in practice, you are mostly going to get Tesla cars at a hotel. Having said that, a J1772 is slightly more safer charging system than just an electrical plug since there is active electronics that makes sure a car is plugged into it. Also a toddler can't stick their fingers into a J1772 and get shocked.

 

[N4HHE]

Also, obviously from Tesla's perspective, getting to put a Tesla-branded charger at a hotel gives them a form of free advertising, and helps promote the idea that Tesla cars are easy to find charging for, whereas non-owners would likely not even notice a NEMA 14-50, let alone realize it could be used to quickly charge an EV.

The hotel's perspective might realize Tesla owners may be more affluent than Leaf owners and therefore more attractive to have as frequent guests of their facility.

 

[jvonbokel]

Musk said Gen III and Model S will not share the same battery so swapping a Gen III becomes impossible. They may play with the idea but I think the end goal is to speed up the charging speed.

Just because Gen III has a different battery won't mean it can't be swapped. It would just necessitate either a pair of swapping machines, or a more versatile swapping machine. However, I agree that Tesla's goal is to eventually make "fast charging" so fast that people don't feel like they need battery swapping. That may require a different battery chemistry, or a different battery structure altogether, so we may not see 5-10min full charges on our current batteries, but they are confident they can do it at some point in the near future (~5yrs?).

Last thing to look at is if the Gen III sells that many cars, I see no reason why Tesla would not be able to quickly deploy more nodes. It is much easier and cheaper to negotiate more parking spaces rather then making new super charging stations from scratch.

I think they're doing a good job already of "future proofing" most sites by negotiating options to expand the number of chargers in the future. This is most likely already a key factor in Supercharger site selection. Construction will probably cost just as much (per charger) for additions, but at least they won't have to re-negotiate for a new site and relocate previous installs for the sake of relieving congestion.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Just because Gen III has a different battery won't mean it can't be swapped. It would just necessitate either a pair of swapping machines, or a more versatile swapping machine.

On the other hand, given that the current fleet of Model S supposedly will need to be modified to support swapping, perhaps the GenIII will be the only swappable model.

 

[jvonbokel]

On the other hand, given that the current fleet of Model S supposedly will need to be modified to support swapping, perhaps the GenIII will be the only swappable model.

This is the first I've heard of that... I was under the impression that Musk emphasized the fact that every Model S on the road was already capable of having its battery swapped.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is the first I've heard of that... I was under the impression that Musk emphasized the fact that every Model S on the road was already capable of having its battery swapped.

That's my impression too. And also would be the requirement for Tesla to get their ZEV credits for battery swapping. If this was not true, I don't see how the Model S got 7 & 5 ZEV credits (for 85kWh and 60kWh respectively).

 

[Gizmotoy]

This is the first I've heard of that... I was under the impression that Musk emphasized the fact that every Model S on the road was already capable of having its battery swapped.

It was designed with swapping in mind, but I've read in several places the way it's currently installed makes swapping batteries on a production model in minutes impossible. If I recall, the current labor required for swapping batteries is on the order of 4 hours, and that they'd need some changes via retrofit to support the quick swapping. I'll try to dig up the link.

Entirely possible I'm not remembering correctly, though.

Edit: Found one of them. Here's what I was thinking of: http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/when-will-battery-swap-be-available

My battery swap happened this week in Rockville. My 85's battery went bad in the parking lot at Rockville while waiting for other scheduled service, so they had to replace it. The job took 3 hours of mechanic labor, and 7600 units of ethylene glycol, three seals, two dozen bolts, and a replacement cover (I am looking at the 9-page repair order as I write this). When we asked the service tech about why it took so long since they are designed for swapping (we already knew better), he just laughed.

There are panels UNDER and attached TO the battery that have to be removed and there is no amount of automation that make that happen.

The existing cars have glue/mastic/sealant around the battery as part of the attachment process

And so forth. The above may not be accurate, but it looks like it does currently take 3-4 hours to replace the battery manually. It doesn't sound like something that could be whittled down to 90 seconds as-is.

 

[jerry33]

Is it common for other plug-in electrics to have a 14-50 adapter? I'd think that a hotel is going to want something that is relatively universal for guests. I'd actually suggest a high-amperage J1772 would be a better bet then a HWPC for most hotel needs.

The Leaf can have it's cord modified to use a 14-50. As Tesla and Leaf are the only EVs with any sales traction (not counting compliance cars or PHEVs), I'd say it's common.