SuperCharging starts to feel slow

[widodh]

+1

If Tesla marketeers advertise Superchargers with '80% in 40 mins', it doesn't feel good when charging 200 km/hour.
Maybe they can introduce aside Superchargers (that truly deliver 120kW) a new class of 'Eurochargers' (95kw) and 'Dieselchargers' (70kW).
A deja vu in the future?

I have never experienced SuperChargers which do NOT deliver ~>100kW. This topic isn't about the sharing which happens between SuperCharger stalls either.

It's mainly about the fact that the battery/car starts to taper the charge as it reaches a higher SoC.

 

[apacheguy]

Well, this would be "aggressive mode" then

The point was that they don't need to label it or even make it an option because it's a non issue.

 

[Johan]

The point was that they don't need to label it or even make it an option because it's a non issue.

You're likely right, but in that case one has to wonder why Tesla are being so conservative with regards to the taper.

 

[FairFrank]

I have never experienced SuperChargers which do NOT deliver ~>100kW. This topic isn't about the sharing which happens between SuperCharger stalls either.

It's mainly about the fact that the battery/car starts to taper the charge as it reaches a higher SoC.

My apologies Widoh, the title reads '...feel...' making me think it is all about experience instead of tapering technologies.
Talking about technology, good to read you have never experienced < 100kW delivering SuperChargers. You probably have a super charge port.
In my short 40.000 km experience and appr. 25 SuperCharges I have experienced in <20% a > 100kW experience.
Last experience with a far from 'full' batterypack:

That doesn't feel good.

 

[widodh]

Re-visiting this thread about a year later and my idea hasn't changed.

In Germany the density is really increasing when it comes to SuperChargers, so that means shorter distances between SupeChargers. Usually it is about 200km.

But still, 4 to 5 stops on a 1.000km trip (which I do a few times a year) is becoming annoying.

Again, I'm not complaining, the Model S is the best car I have ever owned, but, SuperCharging doesn't feel 'super' anymore.

I really hoped that the 90kWh battery would taper less than the 85kWh, but it seems it doesn't.

How do other feel about this and see the future?

 

[jerry33]

I really hoped that the 90kWh battery would taper less than the 85kWh, but it seems it doesn't.

How do other feel about this and see the future?

The 5.9% increase in capacity isn't likely to show much difference in the taper. I'd suspect you'd need a 25% increase for it to be noticeable.

 

[widodh]

The 5.9% increase in capacity isn't likely to show much difference in the taper. I'd suspect you'd need a 25% increase for it to be noticeable.

True, but my hope was they found a way to require less taper.

The point is however still valid. I get slightly more range with a 90kWh, but my charging time isn't shortened.

I would love a 120kWh battery if it would also require less taper.

 

[GSP]

A 120 kWh battery should "require less taper," even using the same cell technology with the same charging curve. A larger battery will allow more km of range before the taper starts. This should get you to the next stop with less charging time (assuming the taper is an issue for you with an 85 kWh battery.

A 120 kWh battery will also allow you to drive further before your first stop, and after a 1 hour lunch stop as well. Even before the taper, 120 kWh will allow a faster charge rate (in kW or kph), if the Superchargers and connectors are also capable of it.

Sounds like just the thing for a 1000 km trip.

GSP

 

[apacheguy]

Widodh - Can you post a typical taper curve for your Model S? There may be secondary factors that are slowing you down. I've heard contactor issues causing more aggressive tapering and it does make a difference if the impedance of the cells have increased by much.

 

[deonb]

A 120 kWh battery should "require less taper," even using the same cell technology with the same charging curve.

No such thing as a battery that requires less tapering. Only a Supercharger that's not capable of delivering as much as power as the battery can handle :wink:

 

[Lesifass]

How do other feel about this and see the future?

I agree with you 100%. I've always said that supercharger speed in km/h is the absolute minimum charging speed for fast chargers that I'd be willing to accept.

For me, the most important metric for a fast charger is "km added within the first 15-20 minutes when arriving with less than 50km of range" (assuming a healthy network of chargers with distances of max. 200km between chargers and sufficient number of charging spots at each place). Because that's how long I want charging stops to be.

My hopes are that
- the Model 3 is smaller, more lightweight and might have better drag coefficient than the Model S – this should all help the "km added within x minutes" metric because Wh/km is lower at Autobahn speeds. The question is of course if the smaller battery leads to significantly less kW after a short time, like with the Model S60. In that case I'd buy the larger battery upgrade not only for the range and longer life / resale value, but also for supercharger speed.
- superchargers get some improvements in the coming years, allowing more than 120kW.

Plans and prototypes for CCS chargers support 150kW, and there are some plans for 350kW CCS already (Porsche I believe?). So Tesla needs to figure something out in the coming years, and I'm sure they are already working on it for quite some time!

 

[widodh]

Widodh - Can you post a typical taper curve for your Model S? There may be secondary factors that are slowing you down. I've heard contactor issues causing more aggressive tapering and it does make a difference if the impedance of the cells have increased by much.

I am currently on vacation with the S and don't have any tools to monitor it on my laptop.

I will watch manually and write down some things. But I don't think something is wrong. I just feel it is slow.

 

[byan1232]

I'm curious if this is only an issue of not exceeding 100kwh in Europe. At the U.S superchargers I've experienced in friends' cars have been >100kwh.

 

[Hogwit]

To all of you: Drive an EV that can't supercharge...or even fast charge. THEN tell me the superchargers are slow.
For my longest trip I left at 4:40am, drove till 6:20am, charged till 10:00am then drove till 11:20.
That was about 150 miles.

 

[tomas]

Maybe it is possible for Tesla to provide a solution to keep charging fast till a higher SOC. For instance by adding a capacitor that will absorp part of the charge at higher SOC's, and then transfer this to the battery shortly after charging was stopped? I would expect Elon and his team to be able to come up with a solution for this.
Would be nice...

This is an AWESOME idea. I'm no EE, but seems as if it could be made to work technically, however I'm guessing there are problems with having battery charging (even from an onboard capacitor) while driving the car. Maybe there's a way it could kick in and charge during regen when the battery could be dormant. Or, there might be a way to momentarily "sleep" the battery at highway speeds to provide a few secs every minute of charging.

 

[AWDtsla]

My apologies Widoh, the title reads '...feel...' making me think it is all about experience instead of tapering technologies.
Talking about technology, good to read you have never experienced < 100kW delivering SuperChargers. You probably have a super charge port.
In my short 40.000 km experience and appr. 25 SuperCharges I have experienced in <20% a > 100kW experience.
Last experience with a far from 'full' batterypack:

View attachment 77280


That doesn't feel good.

Hmm.... my car charges much faster than this, and it seems to roughly agree with the time to charge worksheets. Do you have a 60 or a 70?

 

[widodh]

To all of you: Drive an EV that can't supercharge...or even fast charge. THEN tell me the superchargers are slow.
For my longest trip I left at 4:40am, drove till 6:20am, charged till 10:00am then drove till 11:20.
That was about 150 miles.

Yes, yes. But on a 1.000km trip it starts to fel slow.

On average your speed is 80km/h on such trips. Where I really want 100km/h on average.

 

[widodh]

Yes, yes. But on a 1.000km trip it starts to fel slow.

On average your speed is 80km/h on such trips. Where I really want 100km/h on average.

I will SuC again in 3 days, I'll write down the taper.

 

[Pruitt]

For instance by adding a capacitor that will absorp part of the charge at higher SOC's, and then transfer this to the battery shortly after charging was stopped?

That would be one heckuva capacitor!

 

[jerry33]

That would be one heckuva capacitor!

You would give up all the trunk space to make this happen. Capacitors are not energy dense by any stretch of the imagination.