Supercharging option pricing/60 kWh pack fee discussion

[spatterso911]

It is always interesting to see the wildly different view points that spill out when a major announcment is made by Tesla. Clearly no one individual is right or wrong in their interrpretation of how a situation could have been handled so any attempts to silence groups with a viewpoint different from yours goes no where.

I've always been aiming for the 60kWh pack so this SC pricing impacts me but my general assumption regardless of if there was trickery with wording about hw vs sw being included was that I would be paying some sort of fee in the range of $700 to $1500 range. For the maintenance fee I assumed a price of up to $600/yr since that's what the roadster owners pay. Internet connectivity I'm assuming $30 to $80/mo based on cell phone plans. When I read posts some people make extremly low assumptions as far as what they need to pay for then get disappointed when their assumption is proven wrong. Providing a service for free in most instances is counter-intuitive for a company trying to make a profit, except if that free serveice results in indirectly creating extra revenue. Tesla could have easily just charged 60 and 85kWh packs but didn't. I'm grateful for that.

I've budgeted a certain amount of money to buy this car and there will be several options I want but in the grand scheme of things I can afford what I can afford. If some cool option comes on the table another might go on the chopping block to fit withing my budget. As many have stated you have the option to say no to an option if you don't feel the price is right.

+1 Well said.

 

[agileone]

Seems to me this could be easily remedied by simply stating that for the early reservations they can get unlimited free supercharging access by agreeing to an extra $1k fee no later than 60 days within shipment of their car, or else pay $2k to get the "activation" later on if they want it.

This would make so much more sense. This keeps all options open, and doesn't require me to go on another leap of faith, this one for $2000.

As a Canadian, the likelihood that I get to USE a supercharger in the next 2-3 years in almost zero. If I were in California, I would gladly pay 2k now. It has intrinsic value now.

But they are asking me to basically lend another 2k to Tesla, without any guarantee, I will ever see a live SC within 200 miles of home base ...

 

[ModelS1079]

Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues

Thanks much.

 

[loganss]

unless you're already under contract

All I have to go on with that is the following thread where someone posted a MVPA
A Real MVPA

The person's MVPA in the thread above is for a 85kWh pack. Is the wording exactly the same for the 60kWh pack? If so the MVPA only talks about the SC hardware being included in the price and doesn't mention cost of software or fees associated with charging off of the SC network

Even the following text in the MVPA doesn't exclude Tesla from offering an additional option like the Paint Armor that would change the price:

Purchase Price Taxes and Official Fees. The cash price of the vehicle Item 1.A. is not subject to change. However if during production of the Vehicle you change the options you have selected, you and we enter into a written amendment of this Agreement which affect the cash price.

The ability to use the SC network is not included in the MVPA. Techhnically they also don't say that the SC software is include. It's implied by saying SC hardware is included at no extra fee.

Does a 60kWh person that already signed their MVPA want to upload theirs like the thread i linked in the beginning of this post

For some reason I think of OnStar. GM can give you the hardware/software for it at a particular price then also give you a year free of using the service but then charge you after that year period.

 

[Todd Burch]

I've had a reservation for almost 3 years and have been on this site nearly daily for as long. I have never once thought that the supercharging would be free, for *anyone*. Especially for the 60 kWh version. And yes, I've parsed through every word of every version of the Tesla website. Don't forget, we're all on the absolute forefront of an entirely new technology and a new transportation paradigm. Tesla has made cross-country travel in an electric vehicle realistic. Nobody else has ever done that. Ever.

Tesla has not been great at communicating openly and clearly with its customers, I agree. That is an area they can improve in. But I also believe that what they've offered here for 60 kWh customers is fair. If you like the deal and can afford it, get it. If not, don't. It's as simple as that. No bait and switch, no conspiracy theories--just part of the early adoption process.

 

[Chas F]

Tesla has not been great at communicating openly and clearly with its customers, I agree. That is an area they can improve in. But I also believe that what they've offered here for 60 kWh customers is fair. If you like the deal and can afford it, get it. If not, don't. It's as simple as that. No bait and switch, no conspiracy theories--just part of the early adoption process.

True..but it just seems such a shame for Tesla because, in my case, the $2k is not worth the future and only occasional use of the SC and has made the 60Kw version no longer an attractive option for me, so I'm dropping to the 40kw. Reaching for the additional $2K has cost Tesla the additional $10K from me (minus the cost of the SC HW). So a total loss of $9K of potential revenue from one customer. Seems this is going in the wrong direction for them.

 

[CyberDutchie]

True..but it just seems such a shame for Tesla because, in my case, the $2k is not worth the future and only occasional use of the SC and has made the 60Kw version no longer an attractive option for me, so I'm dropping to the 40kw. Reaching for the additional $2K has cost Tesla the additional $10K from me (minus the cost of the SC HW). So a total loss of $9K of potential revenue from one customer. Seems this is going in the wrong direction for them.

On the flip side, there will be others who will make the jump to a 85 kWh pack because the price difference is now only $8K if you must have Supercharging. So that gives them additional revenue and will cancel out the effect of people like you downgrading to 40 kWh.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems to me this could be easily remedied by simply stating that for the early reservations they can get unlimited free supercharging access by agreeing to an extra $1k fee no later than 60 days within shipment of their car, or else pay $2k to get the "activation" later on if they want it.

It's not a matter of simply activating. Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car. Tesla cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.

 

[mitch672]

I can see no one is happy about the additional fee to enable SC in the 60KW model, but consider what GeorgeB said, and that all of us know who are aware of "demand charges" from electric utilities:

For each SuperCharger site that Tesla deploys, the first time EACH month the SuperCharger is used at that site, Tesla will be required to not only pay for the electricity consumed during that charge, but all the "demand" fees per KW, which could be anywhere from $5/KW to $25/KW depending on the utility. If the peak usage is limited to only 90KW, there is a one time per month charge of $450 to $2,250 per month, per location.

You can clearly see these charges adding up over time as more and more SuperCharger sites are brought online, and even if only a single Model S charges at that site that month, they are still billed for the demand charge.

they are providing free charges for life, yet could be committing to $225K per month, $2.7 million/year with 100 SuperCharger sites, and that's without actual usage charges added in, and the cost to deploy the SC sites as well. I think that's a pretty big leap of faith and goodwill they are showing, maybe we can cut them some slack on the $1,000 fee to enable SC access on the 60KW Model S.

 

[jerry33]

It's not a matter of simply activating. Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car. Tesla cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.

That is probably true today because the calibration equipment exists only at the factory. In the future there could be calibration units at the service centres. In fact, there will have to be when new batteries get installed, unless Tesla is saying "Once calibrated the battery installed makes no difference". In which case there are questions, "What does the calibration actually do?" and "Does the calibration change over time?". A lot of unknowns here.

 

[J in MN]

Teslaspeak: “Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car.”

English: "We are so bad at managing our vendors and meeting quality standards that there is just no way that we can stay in business, let alone maintain 25% gross margin, so we must keep on finding more and more ways to wring every last dollar out of your hands."

 

[Johan]

Teslaspeak: “Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car.”

English: "We are so bad at managing our vendors and meeting quality standards that there is just no way that we can stay in business, let alone maintain 25% gross margin, so we must keep on finding more and more ways to wring every last dollar out of your hands."

Ok that's a little over the top? I think it's reasonable with a fee to enable SC, especially if it's optional to build in the the hardware or not, and the 1k/2k fee is OK IMO. What I react to is that they are charging the 1k to those 60kW buyers who have already finalized their purchase/contract under the impression that both software and hardware were included - I would understand that as the car is SC ready. Then Tesla saying that the 1k is for some technical mumbo-jumbo when in fact it is a fee to allow you to access the SC network - call a spade a spade!

 

[Eberhard]

I am really wonder. for $1000/$2000 lifetime free power for my Model S? How much would you expect to pay for gas next 10-20years?

 

[kevincwelch]

I am really wonder. for $1000/$2000 lifetime free power for my Model S? How much would you expect to pay for gas next 10-20years?

I see your point.

However, the analogy isn't exactly parallel if you consider that most people will be paying $30,000 more for the Model S than they would for a conventional ICE. Therefore, 10-20 years of gas (at least in the USA) at 300 miles per tank and filling up 2x/mo amounts to less than the additional price most people are paying for the Model S. So, the extra expense of a life time of SC isn't necessarily a no brainer, especially since most people will be charging at home on a regular basis, which isn't free.

 

[dsm363]

While Tesla may have said hardware and software was included, did they ever say Supercharger access would be free for both 60 and 85 kWh packs?

 

[jerry33]

I am really wonder. for $1000/$2000 lifetime free power for my Model S? How much would you expect to pay for gas next 10-20years?

The thing is that many are justifying a Model S purchase by saying the difference they pay for the car is really like prepaying for gas. Every bit added on reduces the value of that kind of justification (or adds to the time you have to keep the car to break even).

 

[bonnie]

The thing is that many are justifying a Model S purchase by saying the difference they pay for the car is really like prepaying for gas. Every bit added on reduces the value of that kind of justification (or adds to the time you have to keep the car to break even).

Right, but all the calculations I've seen assume about a quarter the cost of gasoline, not free.

 

[cinergi]

Although the difference is low-cost fuel (home charging) vs. *free* fuel (supercharging).

Edit: Bonnie wins :smile:

 

[jerry33]

Right, but all the calculations I've seen assume about a quarter the cost of gasoline, not free.

That's certainly true, although in my case it's almost exactly half the price rather than a quarter.

 

[Eberhard]

The thing is that many are justifying a Model S purchase by saying the difference they pay for the car is really like prepaying for gas. Every bit added on reduces the value of that kind of justification (or adds to the time you have to keep the car to break even).

but you are paying for charging at home - on long-distance at SC you get it for free.

 

[CyberDutchie]

That is probably true today because the calibration equipment exists only at the factory. In the future there could be calibration units at the service centres. In fact, there will have to be when new batteries get installed, unless Tesla is saying "Once calibrated the battery installed makes no difference". In which case there are questions, "What does the calibration actually do?" and "Does the calibration change over time?". A lot of unknowns here.

I figure if the calibration has to do with the cabling it is not an easy thing to do. Who knows, it may involve placing magnets at specific locations to contain electromagnetic fields. I'm not an expert but trust Tesla that they can't easily do a retrofit after the car has left the factory.