You are right that technically nothing was specifically off limits for Supercharging under the original and still current agreement. Even parking at the Supercharger, plugging in and going to see a movie marathon wasn't specifically forbidden but most people realized that was inappropriate.
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You are right that technically nothing was specifically off limits for Supercharging under the original and still current agreement. Even parking at the Supercharger, plugging in and going to see a movie marathon wasn't specifically forbidden but most people realized that was inappropriate.
The key distinction, to me at least, is whether the rapid charging is truly _enabling_ long-distance travel, or is done for reasons of cost shifting. After all, Tesla's mission is to advance sustainable transportation and to do that they are trying to enable long-distance travel in electric cars.
1) a private hire taxi driver drives his car 12 hours and then goes home to sleep. But before going home the taxi driver goes to the Supercharger, charges and drives home. Supercharger IS NOT used to enable long-distance travel.
2) a private hire taxi driver drivers his car 12 hours and then goes home to sleep. But the taxi driver leases his car to another driver. The other driver picks up the car, drives it to a Supercharger, charges it up, drives for 10 hours, returns to the Supercharger, charges the car and then drops the car back at the owner's house. Supercharger IS used to enable long-distance travel.
Whether Tesla wants to the Supercharger network being used for vehicles in 24-hour service is a different question to whether it's "abuse" of the system.
Insane
Banned
If I happen to be in the vicinity of a charger I might take advantage of getting a charge and I am able to utilize the wait time in the shopping etc. But I wouldn't make a trip for the sole purpose of getting a free charge. How much could one possibly save ? My time is worth more elsewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if Elon comes up with a new pricing for newly ordered cars. An annual limit on the millage/hours/watt of charge. After which the owner will be billed or charged for usage. Perhaps the P85D will have unlimited charging.
I wouldn't be surprised if Elon comes up with a new pricing for newly ordered cars. An annual limit on the millage/hours/watt of charge. After which the owner will be billed or charged for usage. Perhaps the P85D will have unlimited charging.
Be Careful What You Wish For
Some folks here feel that by strict interpretation of Tesla's Supercharging wording, there are absolutely no limitations on their usage. They may be technically correct.
Clearly now, with Elon's comments, it's clear that's not Tesla's intent or preference. However, these same folks may opt to disregard that, which also may be within their right to do.
However, remember that's a knife that can cut both ways. Tesla could opt for a strict interpretation of what they've promised you as well:
So Tesla may be well within their legal right to provide you Supercharging at a 10KWh rate. It's still free, as they promised.
I'm not saying they will do that they will do that for offenders. But they could if folks want to get hung up on "the letter of the law", rather than acting in good faith.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Some folks here feel that by strict interpretation of Tesla's Supercharging wording, there are absolutely no limitations on their usage. They may be technically correct.
Clearly now, with Elon's comments, it's clear that's not Tesla's intent or preference. However, these same folks may opt to disregard that, which also may be within their right to do.
However, remember that's a knife that can cut both ways. Tesla could opt for a strict interpretation of what they've promised you as well:
Tesla's Supercharger Page said:
So Tesla may be well within their legal right to provide you Supercharging at a 10KWh rate. It's still free, as they promised.
I'm not saying they will do that they will do that for offenders. But they could if folks want to get hung up on "the letter of the law", rather than acting in good faith.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
They could also quit expanding the Supercharger network. Unintended consequences of actions aren't always so great.
I can understand our local Tesla Store stating that it is ok to use the Superchargers for all travel in our area because all the Superchargers are about 100 miles or more from the store, and there isn't many Teslas close to the Superchargers.
I ordered Supercharging hardware for $2000 and the invoice states that it was specifically for hardware. We assumed at that time that there would be a fee for Supercharging. What a nice surprise to get free supercharging to facilitate long distance travel for the car!
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I agree 100%. The goal is still to facilitate long distance travel for BEVs and to accommodate those that have unusual charging issues. (i.e. a home charger unavailable or out-of-service.)
Yes, if you want a second charger in your car (twin chargers) the cost in Finland is 2600 EUR. $2000 for unlimited Supercharging forever sounds quite ridiculous compared to that.
Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving...
The problem with tapering is it may not deter the hardcore freeloader. The person who 'paid for it and I'm going to use it as much as I want' type who also had home charging. They'll just go watch a movie and come back or have a friend pick them up and come back to save that $5. And yes I know he freeloader paid into the system just like we all did so not technically a freeloader.
The problem with tapering is it may not deter the hardcore freeloader. The person who 'paid for it and I'm going to use it as much as I want' type who also had home charging. They'll just go watch a movie and come back or have a friend pick them up and come back to save that $5. And yes I know he freeloader paid into the system just like we all did so not technically a freeloader.
I don't know where these "I'll take my toys and go home" type of suggestions from several posters for Tesla come from. Sounds like a retaliatory spirit.
Holding a company to the product and service they sold can have unintended consequences, of course, but that doesn't mean it would automatically be wrong to hold them to that. Tesla chose to promote Superchargers the way they did - and their car sales benefited from that. Asking them to respect those terms for bought cars on seems perfectly fair to me.
Nor would I expect Tesla to behave like a child with toys. I actually believe they will respect the existing terms, even if they send a few letters. Future - e.g. Model 3 - may of course face different terms as the volumes go up and that's perfectly fair too, as long as they publicize it properly.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to ask Tesla to specify a clear policy for the future - and respect the older policy for existing customers.
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I don't know about the very beginning, but at least since 2013 Tesla has publicized the rule that Supercharger stalls should be freed after the charge is complete, so I think it is perfectly fair for them to ask that from there onwards.
Holding a company to the product and service they sold can have unintended consequences, of course, but that doesn't mean it would automatically be wrong to hold them to that. Tesla chose to promote Superchargers the way they did - and their car sales benefited from that. Asking them to respect those terms for bought cars on seems perfectly fair to me.
Nor would I expect Tesla to behave like a child with toys. I actually believe they will respect the existing terms, even if they send a few letters. Future - e.g. Model 3 - may of course face different terms as the volumes go up and that's perfectly fair too, as long as they publicize it properly.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to ask Tesla to specify a clear policy for the future - and respect the older policy for existing customers.
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I don't know about the very beginning, but at least since 2013 Tesla has publicized the rule that Supercharger stalls should be freed after the charge is complete, so I think it is perfectly fair for them to ask that from there onwards.
Indeed. And they can deliver exactly what those terms promised if you want to adhere to the "strict interpretation" stance.
I think I know who's behavior is childlike when politely asked to play nicely and they refuse to do so... and it ain't Tesla.
I'm sure Tesla could set some limits on Supercharging efficiency and be within their rights, sure. I think some mild throttling could be perfectly acceptable too. I don't think some ridiculously retaliatory throttling would be within that, though. I am not trying to be unreasonable towards Tesla. I just don't think a bait and switch on the "free for life of car" Supercharging terms (by adding new qualifications and limitations) would be cool either.
I think I know a lot of people who prefer to not see the fault in Tesla in any case, that's for sure.
I want to say here I REALLY REALLY appreciate Tesla's continued efforts to treat people like adults. I personally hate too many rules, and while I know common sense ain't that common, Tesla IMO does a great job of being on a common sense path. Elon's comment at the meeting was just more of "here's our intent, we may do some personal communication for outliers". No huge program change.
Elon's fighting the larger war, always. I think Tesla won't waste many resources trying to bring the few in line with the intent. Tesla will attempt to make general statements that both enlighten the general public about how easy EVs are to use, and encourage appropriate commons use, with the goal being (refrain to accelerate the adoption of sustainable energy and transport.
Yes there will always be those who parse Tesla's statements however they want to say it's technically legal, or they've paid for it, or you're not the boss of me, or whatever. It's like whack-a-mole, and that "Somebody's WRONG on the internet" cartoon that scaesare posted. Some people can't deal with any ambiguity and need everything spelled out in technicolor 17 ways from Sunday, or at least that's what it seems like with some of the word-parsing. Blaming Tesla for an unclear communication mistake is over the top IMO.
I *LIKE* the way Tesla describes things -- with general intent, and not placing a lot of rules around things, trusting people to make adult decisions. It even goes to physical design - the ability to have the rear camera operate, or the web browser, while driving for example (so the adult thing would be: it isn't the driver who is browsing the web).
Keep it up, Tesla!!! (Except for the price display "After Incentives & Gas Savings" crap... don't agree with that.)
Elon's fighting the larger war, always. I think Tesla won't waste many resources trying to bring the few in line with the intent. Tesla will attempt to make general statements that both enlighten the general public about how easy EVs are to use, and encourage appropriate commons use, with the goal being (refrain
to accelerate the adoption of sustainable energy and transport.Yes there will always be those who parse Tesla's statements however they want to say it's technically legal, or they've paid for it, or you're not the boss of me, or whatever. It's like whack-a-mole, and that "Somebody's WRONG on the internet" cartoon that scaesare posted. Some people can't deal with any ambiguity and need everything spelled out in technicolor 17 ways from Sunday, or at least that's what it seems like with some of the word-parsing. Blaming Tesla for an unclear communication mistake is over the top IMO.
I *LIKE* the way Tesla describes things -- with general intent, and not placing a lot of rules around things, trusting people to make adult decisions. It even goes to physical design - the ability to have the rear camera operate, or the web browser, while driving for example (so the adult thing would be: it isn't the driver who is browsing the web).
Keep it up, Tesla!!! (Except for the price display "After Incentives & Gas Savings" crap... don't agree with that
.)
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I want to say here I REALLY REALLY appreciate Tesla's continued efforts to treat people like adults. I personally hate too many rules, and while I know common sense ain't that common, Tesla IMO does a great job of being on a common sense path. Elon's comment at the meeting was just more of "here's our intent, we may do some personal communication for outliers". No huge program change.
Elon's fighting the larger war, always. I think Tesla won't waste many resources trying to bring the few in line with the intent. Tesla will attempt to make general statements that both enlighten the general public about how easy EVs are to use, and encourage appropriate commons use, with the goal being (refrain
Yes there will always be those who parse Tesla's statements however they want to say it's technically legal, or they've paid for it, or you're not the boss of me, or whatever. It's like whack-a-mole, and that "Somebody's WRONG on the internet" cartoon that scaesare posted. Some people can't deal with any ambiguity and need everything spelled out in technicolor 17 ways from Sunday, or at least that's what it seems like with some of the word-parsing. Blaming Tesla for an unclear communication mistake is over the top IMO.
I *LIKE* the way Tesla describes things -- with general intent, and not placing a lot of rules around things, trusting people to make adult decisions. It even goes to physical design - the ability to have the rear camera operate, or the web browser, while driving for example (so the adult thing would be: it isn't the driver who is browsing the web).
Keep it up, Tesla!!! (Except for the price display "After Incentives & Gas Savings" crap... don't agree with that
Well said. I'm just reading this thread from time to time and am completely gobsmacked over the need of some to have rules and specifics spelled out, while totally ignoring any information that doesn't agree with their stance & simultaneously dismissing anyone who disagrees with them as just someone willing to defend Tesla no matter what. (Because of course there couldn't be any other reason for disagreeing with them.
)Sure your post will be pretty much lost in the weeds that will quickly grow up around it, so highlighting a bit. I'm sure there are those at Tesla reading these posts and thinking, 'Are you kidding me? They went THERE with such a simple statement?'.
I continue to reiterate: they don't have to add a single new qualification or limitation to what they've written. They can just play by the rules you are choosing to engage in and adhere strictly to the letter of what's written.
What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, and all that.
(For the record I agree with Ugliest1 and Bonnie's sentiments, and hope Tesla does not do this... I'm laying this out as a cautionary tale for those who want to play the "hide behind finely parsed statements" game..._)
Of course Tesla must have known from day one that certain % of owners will "abuse" the supercharger network. You can't expect every single one of more than 50 000 people to "act like adults" or whatever you call it especially when Tesla web page still says "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.".
It would be interesting to see the note they are sending. Hopefully someone will post one here soon. Of course that abuser must create a new user account first.
It would be interesting to see the note they are sending. Hopefully someone will post one here soon. Of course that abuser must create a new user account first.
The funny part is, we feel exactly the same about each other. I think you are hiding behind finely parsed statements when excusing Tesla's toying with new limitations.
I guess that's about as much agreement - in a way - we can expect.
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Of course Tesla must have known from day one that certain % of owners will "abuse" the supercharger network. You can't expect every single one of more than 50 000 people to "act like adults" or whatever you call it especially when Tesla web page still says "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.".
It would be interesting to see the note they are sending. Hopefully someone will post one here soon. Of course that abuser must create a new user account first.
Panu, you must finely parse that "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like." like an adult to understand it correctly. Don't understand it like a child.
Instead of tapering, just give them 5 minutes of charging time. Then send them alerts if they don't unplug from the charger right away. If they continue to stay plugged in (but not receiving a charge), penalize them on future charges. For every X minutes that they stayed plugged in, on future charges, do NOT allow charging for the same amount of time. Force them to disconnect again, wait the specified time and then return to continue charging. For example, after their 5 minutes of charging, they remain connected to the charger for 2 hours. The next time they try to do a supercharge, display a message that they are temporarily suspended for 2 hours. They must disconnect and wait 2 hours before charging. They'll see that as an inconvenience that is directly related to how long they inconvenienced other drivers. They still get free charging but it is enough of a hassle that they would hopefully try to find a better option.
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