Sudden Unintended Acceleration

[GatorGuy]

All good points. I guess it just depends on the person. Since I was taught the 2-foot method and always used it, I am confident it does not decrease MY reaction time and in fact after doing this for decades, I am faster. In a plane, you need the two feet on the tarmac for better maneuverability, so it is a natural thing for me now. If you haven't done it for long, it is hard to imagine. It just doesn't sound to be better, yet is in my opinion. Your mileage will vary I certainly don't recommend people start using 2 feet after years of doing it with one

I don't think it would increase reaction time. I think it would decrease it but it is a question of how much. I think in a car like a Tesla which automatically starts braking when you lift off the accelerator, the benefit is less than normal cars. I just question whether it would solve the problem of people mashing the wrong pedal.

Also, don't forget that the vast majority of "reaction time" is the person recognizing what the problem is. Not moving foot from accelerator to brake.

 

[FlyF4]

I don't think it would increase reaction time. I think it would decrease it but it is a question of how much. I think in a car like a Tesla which automatically starts braking when you lift off the accelerator, the benefit is less than normal cars. I just question whether it would solve the problem of people mashing the wrong pedal.

Also, don't forget that the vast majority of "reaction time" is the person recognizing what the problem is. Not moving foot from accelerator to brake.

Ain't going to argue with you. Your points are just as good. It's just two people's opinions. See my last paragraph. All I know is that my driving process has given me a perfect 50 year record, so something about it is working.

 

[whitex]

That's a good idea, except I had that exact one and it got so dim after just a month that I couldn't see it any more. I then bought one that mounted on the wall in front of the car and had a stoplight pattern. Been using that one for 3 years now.

I have one that looks just like the one that went dark on you. Using it daily for 1.5 years now, as bright as ever.

 

[whitex]

All of this reminds me of an incident with the wife last summer when pulling the car in the driveway. She turned in the drive and applied the brakes, and you know that when you do that for about 2 seconds when stopping, the car goes into a "hold" state. Then she presses the accelerator again and the car jumps a little. Fortunately she hits the brake before running into the wooden fence. So to us, that hold mode can be a disadvantage in this situation. She says "Why isn't there a feature where I can tell the car go into "creep mode" at our home location by gps in the same way we can set the suspension height or open the garage door?" I thought it wasn't such a bad idea as the Tesla would be more like a regular ICE car where it will continue to roll slowly while pulling into the driveway or garage with a foot staying near the brake. She won't pull the car in the garage after that experience.

As for me, I don't care for the idea. I've always been a two-foot driver (comes from planes in the Navy), so I always have the left foot near the brake and instinctively press it when things go wrong. Yet, I realize that probably 98% of people are one-foot drivers. Easier to get confused which pedal to hit.

Maybe this will help, when in "hold" state, you can just tap and release the brake again to start creeping again - no need to touch the accelerator (IIRC the message on the instrument cluster shows this too).

The reason why using creep mode is so much safer when parking forward is because if you for some reason overshoot and hit something, be it even a bump on the floor, with the foot on the accelerator the car suddenly stops but your foot keeps on going, causing a heavier press on the accelerator and an unintended acceleration.

 

[whitex]

Human memory is notoriously unreliable.

Especially in a high adrenaline situation such as an accident. This is why in some jurisdictions the testimony of anyone in the car involved in the accident is discounted. When my wife was in an accident recently, she was certain her Model S spun around "at least 3 times" as she remembered it. Watching the dashcam footage however shows only 1 complete spin.

 

[scottf200]

That's a good idea, except I had that exact one and it got so dim after just a month that I couldn't see it any more. I then bought one that mounted on the wall in front of the car and had a stoplight pattern. Been using that one for 3 years now.

I've using our for over a years, as have my neighbor and one of my kids. Not sure what happened to yours but the 3 I've mentioned have been reliable.

 

[Electricfan]

Unintended acceleration cases are almost universally determined to be user error. This is especially so with Teslas. Telemetry doesn't lie. You hit the gas pedal then the brake. You want to argue with a computer?

I took a Fortran class in 1979 or so. I still remember the first day of class. Our professor said not to be discouraged by failures. He said "Remember, to err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer."

Why car companies deny the issue is their equipment is obvious. If they admitted the car's acceleration is controlled by a computer, and thus by software, and thus can have glitches, they'd be killed in court and lots of victims would be getting reparations.

I have no idea what happened in this particular case. But my friend, if you think computers are infallible, you need to think again. They are programmed by humans. And because of that, they are guaranteed to f*^k up.

 

[Canuck]

But my friend, if you think computers are infallible, you need to think again. They are programmed by humans. And because of that, they are guaranteed to f*^k up.

No one thinks they are infallible but when compared to a human claiming unintended acceleration, my money's on the computer having nothing to do with it.

Cars Gone Wild: The Major Contributor to Unintended Acceleration in Automobiles is Pedal Error

 

[FlyF4]

Maybe this will help, when in "hold" state, you can just tap and release the brake again to start creeping again - no need to touch the accelerator (IIRC the message on the instrument cluster shows this too).

The reason why using creep mode is so much safer when parking forward is because if you for some reason overshoot and hit something, be it even a bump on the floor, with the foot on the accelerator the car suddenly stops but your foot keeps on going, causing a heavier press on the accelerator and an unintended acceleration.

yea, you make a good point, yet I would not call it creeping if I were Tesla because if the car is completely stopped on level ground, then tapping the brake doesn't allow the car to slowly roll forward. Our other car (ice car) will do that when letting off the brake but keeping foot near it. In the Tesla we have to actually apply the accelerator again (hopefully slightly but it is touchy).

 

[DarkMatter]

I have been using creep off so far because I drove manual transmission cars for many years before the Tesla. Just today, on the information in this thread, I switched to creep on. So far I actually am liking it a fair bit. It's smoother to take off without the hold releasing every single time. I may yet swap back, but I can see the fun of creep now.

 

[whitex]

yea, you make a good point, yet I would not call it creeping if I were Tesla because if the car is completely stopped on level ground, then tapping the brake doesn't allow the car to slowly roll forward. Our other car (ice car) will do that when letting off the brake but keeping foot near it. In the Tesla we have to actually apply the accelerator again (hopefully slightly but it is touchy).

Are you sure you have creep mode on? It works for me every time. The only exception is if the car has been parked for a while in damp weather, the sometimes the parking brake gets stuck and requires the accelerator to get it going, but only first time.

When stopped on level, let go of brake, if car not creeping, press and release brake. Should work.

 

[FlyF4]

Are you sure you have creep mode on? It works for me every time. The only exception is if the car has been parked for a while in damp weather, the sometimes the parking brake gets stuck and requires the accelerator to get it going, but only first time. When stopped on level, let go of brake, if car not creeping, press and release brake. Should work.

Good question. I'll clarify. We understand very well how that function works. No, we don't have creep mode on. We don't like it. Never liked it in an ICE car. To me, it is too easy to allow the car to keep rolling if accidentally taking foot off the break. What I thought you meant was that if the car is not on level ground, it can begin rolling again when tapping the brake to release hold mode, whether or not creep mode is on or off.

This issue of accelerator sensitivity at a stop is why the wife was suggesting it be nice to have a feature where she can have creep mode engage at a particular gps location in the same way that suspension changes can be made. The only place where she wants the car to creep is when pulling into the garage, not driving all the time.

 

[whitex]

Good question. I'll clarify. We understand very well how that function works. No, we don't have creep mode on. We don't like it. Never liked it in an ICE car. To me, it is too easy to allow the car to keep rolling if accidentally taking foot off the break. What I thought you meant was that if the car is not on level ground, it can begin rolling again when tapping the brake to release hold mode, whether or not creep mode is on or off.

This issue of accelerator sensitivity at a stop is why the wife was suggesting it be nice to have a feature where she can have creep mode engage at a particular gps location in the same way that suspension changes can be made. The only place where she wants the car to creep is when pulling into the garage, not driving all the time.

I get it now. You like creep mode but only in certain locations. This could present other dangerous situations as now the car behaves differently depending on GPS location, so if you let your foot off the brake it either goes or doesn't. I can see that creating more issues, I know how different it feels to drive when regen is disabled, I would hate if creep went on/off - it changes how the car drives.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I get it now. You like creep mode but only in certain locations. This could present other dangerous situations as now the car behaves differently depending on GPS location, so if you let your foot off the brake it either goes or doesn't. I can see that creating more issues, I know how different it feels to drive when regen is disabled, I would hate if creep went on/off - it changes how the car drives.

I agree that such GPS-enabled creep could be dangerous. I have creep enabled and like how it is safer when pulling into my garage. I would also want it enabled when pulling into parking spaces in parking lots, parking garages, etc. so I would just prefer it to be enabled at all times.

If I don't want the car to creep, I just keep my foot on the brake or use the brake Hold function so that I can remove my foot from the brake.

 

[bmah]

I get it now. You like creep mode but only in certain locations. This could present other dangerous situations as now the car behaves differently depending on GPS location, so if you let your foot off the brake it either goes or doesn't. I can see that creating more issues, I know how different it feels to drive when regen is disabled, I would hate if creep went on/off - it changes how the car drives.

Also it introduces the possibility for a GPS malfunction to make the car behave differently from what you expect it to do.

(The GPS subsystem in my car went haywire for a time...I knew the nav display would be wrong but there were several other geofenced things like charger and suspension settings that unexpectedly didn't do what I wanted either.)

Bruce.

 

[FlyF4]

I get it now. You like creep mode but only in certain locations. This could present other dangerous situations as now the car behaves differently depending on GPS location, so if you let your foot off the brake it either goes or doesn't. I can see that creating more issues, I know how different it feels to drive when regen is disabled, I would hate if creep went on/off - it changes how the car drives.

Possibly for some people, but I will live with that since we would only have creep mode on at home. I'm not bothered by the change in regen depending on the conditions, so I guess it is just a personal thing.

 

[FlyF4]

Also it introduces the possibility for a GPS malfunction to make the car behave differently from what you expect it to do.

(The GPS subsystem in my car went haywire for a time...I knew the nav display would be wrong but there were several other geofenced things like charger and suspension settings that unexpectedly didn't do what I wanted either.)

Bruce.

yes, Bruce, good point. I guess it all depends on the perspective. The wife would be ok with it and in fact like it, yet understand why some people wouldn't. To me it is far more dangerous with the unpredictability of the current AP capabilities to make the right decisions. And for that reason, I am ever vigilant when driving and using it.

Interesting to note about your gps experience. I had that happen just once in the last year. I was in a long tunnel.

 

[Chopr147]

From what I know brake is stronger than the motors (i.e. if you had the brakes pressed and the motors were full throttle, the car doesn't go anywhere). The brakes need to be this strong to be able to stop such a massive car with its huge kinetic energy at high speeds.

With this 2 pedal talk i'm confused. My Tesla will not move the car at all if I press brake and accelerator together. It beeps and gives error msg. "2 pedals pressed" So 2 pedals does not work unless of course you lift the brake pedal off

 

[MorrisonHiker]

With this 2 pedal talk i'm confused. My Tesla will not move the car at all if I press brake and accelerator together. It beeps and gives error msg. "2 pedals pressed" So 2 pedals does not work unless of course you lift the brake pedal off

How timely:

 

[bmah]

yes, Bruce, good point. I guess it all depends on the perspective. The wife would be ok with it and in fact like it, yet understand why some people wouldn't. To me it is far more dangerous with the unpredictability of the current AP capabilities to make the right decisions. And for that reason, I am ever vigilant when driving and using it.

I wonder if this vigilance is also a result of your aviation training and experience. I'm not a pilot, but I'm somewhat familiar with the aviation culture, and there are a number of concepts and themes from flight training that seem to be useful in driving, like verifying settings and controls and not trusting/assuming that they just work correctly. Any thoughts?

Bruce.

PS. Going further off topic, thank you for your service. The California ANG wing in my hometown used to fly the F-4D, and their departure path went over my high school...got very used to hearing those twin turbines passing overhead just after lunchtime.