Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[P85DEE]

Maybe if they didn't advertise confusing numbers, those people wouldn't have "taken the shot" in the first place?

By not allowing these people to buy again, you're taking away the incentive for Tesla to learn from their mistake. They can do it again and this time the "noisy" people won't be there to complain.

So they are supposed to "learn from their mistake". Learn what and from whom? A "lesson"?

Well, you can't learn a lesson, without being taught a lesson. So the message here is looking to me like; "Tesla needs to be taught a lesson."

And some of us wonder why Tesla would be within their right to choose to not do further business with those who felt that they should be "taught a lesson"?

To your part in bold, I'd say, "very well". But I am thinking that Tesla does not see it the same way. And they certainly won't appreciate having been taken to court over it by those who think that "Tesla needs to learn" from this mistake, and they intend to do their part to "teach them".

OK. But there are enough "lessons" here to go around, and Tesla should not be the only one getting a lesson. They shouldn't be the only ones with their books open.

They should give one too, as long as everyone is "going to school" and "learning from their mistakes".

in order for Tesla to do it's part to make things right, the price for them having done what you describe in bold in your first line above, should be their putting things back as they were and giving those who took the shot at them and landed them in court, their money back. Those who get their money back, along with a thank you, should have no expectation of doing any future business with them.

 

[sandpiper]

in order for Tesla to do it's part to make things right, the price for them having done what you describe in bold, should be their putting things back as they were and giving those who took the shot at them and landed them in court, their money back. Those who get their money back, along with a thank you , should have no expectation of doing any future business with them.

Exactly. That seems completely and utterly reasonable. If all things were known then as they are known now, there may well be some folks who would have chosen not to buy a P85D. That's fair. And so then they are at no loss if returned to where they were. And, last I checked, we live in a free market and anybody can sell or not sell something to whomever they want. Nobody could blame Tesla for not wanting to deal with somebody who is bent on running them through the mud and sending in the lawyers.

And if somebody really does want a Tesla after all of that, there is always a used market out there.

 

[WarpedOne]

"But but but, I love the car, I love the tesla, I don't want to return it, yada yada yada"
"I just wish the company to change, to be more ethical, to educate, yada, yada, yada"."
"No No No! I want may 691 HP that I payed for!"

 

[cynix]

So they are suppose to "learn from their mistake". Learn what? A "lesson"? From "whom"?....or in other words "they should be taught a lesson"? You have to have a teacher if you're going to learn or be taught a lesson. Who would be doing the teaching in this case? The obvious answer is the litigants who would have taken them to court. Tesla certainly is not going to take punitive measures towards themselves. How much is their lesson going to cost them?

And some of us wonder why Tesla would be within their right to choose to not do further business with those who felt that they should be "taught a lesson"?

To your part in bold, I'd say, "very well". But I am thinking that Tesla does not see it the same way. And they certainly won't appreciate having been taken to court over it by those who think that "Tesla needs to learn" from this mistake, and they intend to do their part to "teach them".

You've gone to great lengths to twist my words to fit your narrative. I have never once said they should be "taught a lesson", or in any way suggested or implied that they should be sued, in this thread or elsewhere.

 

[P85DEE]

You've gone to great lengths to twist my words to fit your narrative. I have never once said they should be "taught a lesson", or in any way suggested or implied that they should be sued, in this thread or elsewhere.

What does "learn from their mistake mean"?

I'd ask you again, learn exactly what and from whom???

What "mistake"?

But above all else, how exactly does one "learn from their mistake", unless they've been "taught a lesson"?

 

[cynix]

What does "learn from their mistakes mean"?

I'd ask you again, learn exactly what and from whom???

They caused confusion for their customers by quoting a number that was not clearly explained, and not what most people expected. As a business that depends on customers paying them money, I think it's in their best interest to avoid such situations in the future, regardless of whether the number they quoted is technically correct or not.

 

[P85DEE]

They caused confusion for their customers by quoting a number that was not clearly explained, and not what most people expected. As a business that depends on customers paying them money, I think it's in their best interest to avoid such situations in the future, regardless of whether the number they quoted is technically correct or not.

You say that you think it's in their best interest to avoid such situations in the "future".

Also, what about all of the "confusion" that you indicate that they caused "in the past"?

 

[cynix]

You say that you think it's in their best interest to avoid such situations in the "future".

What about all of the "confusion" that you indicate that they caused "in the past"?

What about them? I was only saying they should learn to avoid such messy situations in the future. I did not make any assertions or suggestions on what they should do with the current mess.

 

[P85DEE]

What about them? I was only saying they should learn to avoid such messy situations in the future. I did not make any assertions or suggestions on what they should do with the current mess.

I see, so then then thats's the lesson. That part in bold.

"Learn", under the tutelage of whom and how, and under whose yoke?

What mechanisms are currently in place to ensure that they "learn" that which you describe above, so that it doesn't happen "in the future", and what indications should we look for in order to confirm that they've learned this?

 

[cynix]

I see, so then then thats's the lesson. That part in bold.

What mechanisms are currently in place to ensure that they "learn" that which you describe above, so that it doesn't happen again, and what indications should we look for in order to confirm that they've learned this?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or trying to get me to say. You seem to fixate on the idea of a "lesson", as if someone has to force Tesla to learn/do something. I would hope that they're smart enough to just look at this mess and realise that it's not good, without needing to be "taught" by someone, and without a "mechanism" to force them to do so.

As to what indications we can look for, I guess if there are no more megathreads about confusing specs/terminology in the future then we can conclude that they've learnt.

 

[P85DEE]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or trying to get me to say. You seem to fixate on the idea of a "lesson", as if someone has to force Tesla to learn/do something. I would hope that they're smart enough to just look at this mess and realise that it's not good, without needing to be "taught" by someone, and without a "mechanism" to force them to do so.

As to what indications we can look for, I guess if there are no more megathreads about confusing specs/terminology in the future then we can conclude that they've learnt.

Well, you say that Tesla should "learn to avoid such messy situations in the future".

Aren't those your words?

Ok, well who is supposed to "pay" for that lesson? Who should pay for that "learning"?

Because when people who were as you say above "confused" by Tesla, and didn't get what they thought they were purchasing, it's looking like they are the ones who are paying for Tesla to learn what you describe above.

You can't have it both ways.

Now, if what you're saying happened, if your position is this "confusion" is at the hands of Tesla, (I think the "confusion" rests at the feet of the customer, but not to digress), well then it cost somebody something. And somebody paid, lesson learned or not.

So so if they caused confusion, who do you think should pay for the lesson to not cause any further such confusion?

 

[cynix]

Well, you say that Tesla should "learn to avoid such messy situations in the future".

Aren't those your words?

Yes, and I thought it's a concept that's pretty much universally understood and accepted: you look at a bad situation and try not to let it happen again. Who'd have thought this needed a prolonged debate?

Ok, well who is supposed to "pay" for that lesson? Who should pay for that "learning"?

Because when people who were as you say above "confused" by Tesla, and didn't get what they thought they were purchasing, it's looking like they are the ones who are paying for Tesla to learn what you describe above.

You can't have it both ways.

Now, if what you're saying happened, if your position is this "confusion" is at the hands of Tesla, (I think the "confusion" rests at the feet of the customer, but not to digress), well then it cost somebody something. And somebody paid, lesson learned or not.

So so if they caused confusion, who do you think should pay for the lesson to not cause any further such confusion?

Why do you keep trying to bring "payment" into this discussion? It doesn't cost anything to look at a bad situation and remember not to do it again.

 

[tomas]

"But but but, I love the car, I love the tesla, I don't want to return it, yada yada yada"
"I just wish the company to change, to be more ethical, to educate, yada, yada, yada"."
"No No No! I want may 691 HP that I payed for!"

Those who think they are playing the loving, disciplining parent are deluded.
Those who want 691 at the axle are asking for something not technically feasible at this time.
If they join together in action, tesla has to treat them as one, and nobody gets what they want.

 

[P85DEE]

Yes, and I thought it's a concept that's pretty much universally understood and accepted: you look at a bad situation and try not to let it happen again. Who'd have thought this needed a prolonged debate?




Why do you keep trying to bring "payment" into this discussion? It doesn't cost anything to look at a bad situation and remember not to do it again.

This discussion doesn't happen without including "payment".

The reason why it doesn't, is because a big part of the argument and griping is that people did not get what they paid for. I've seen it argued that they paid as much as $20k too much because of highway roll on comparisons with 85D.

Their argument is that they paid and supposedly did not get what they paid for.

I don't believe that, but that is their position.

You indicate that Tesla is the cause of the "confusion" experienced by those customers. Furthermore you say that Tesla should "learn" not to cause such confusion in the future.

Well, if the above position that people paid $20k too much for a P85D is a valid one, and if Tesla is supposed to "learn" from this matter to avoid confusing anyone else in the manner which you indicate that the did prior, well then it's looking like those customers paid 20 grand each towards Tesla's tuition to "learn" such.

With that said, as I see it, any and all confusion on this matter, rests with the customers who did not bother to find out what 691 horsepower motor power meant.

 

[cynix]

This discussion doesnt happen without "payment".

The discussion about Tesla avoiding such situations in the future certainly can happen without payment. You're talking about what has already happened, which is an entirely different discussion.

A big part of the argument is that people did not get what they paid for. I've seen it argued that they paid as much as $20k too much because of highway roll on comparisons with 85D

You indicate that Tesla is the cause of the "confusion" experienced by those customers. Furthermore you say tat Tesla should "learn" not to cause such confusion in the future.

Well, if the above position that people paid $20k too much for a P85D is a valid one, and if Tesla is supposed to "learn" from this matter to avoid confusing anyone else, well then it's looking like those customers paid 20grand each towards Tesla's tuition to "learn" such.

If that's how you see it, then I guess it's only natural that these customers aren't happy.

My that said, as I see it, any abd all confusion on this matter, rests with the customers who did not bother to find out what 691 horsepower motor power meant.

Regardless of why the customers are confused, it's in Tesla's best interest to not have confused customers. Because ultimately it's Tesla who's trying to get customers to buy their products, not the other way round.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

This discussion doesn't happen without including "payment".

The reason why it doesn't, is because a big part of the argument and griping is that people did not get what they paid for. I've seen it argued that they paid as much as $20k too much because of highway roll on comparisons with 85D.

Their ir argument is that they paid and supposedly did not get what they paid for.

I dont one believe that, but that is their position.

You indicate that Tesla is the cause of the "confusion" experienced by those customers. Furthermore you say that Tesla should "learn" not to cause such confusion in the future.

Well, if the above position that people paid $20k too much for a P85D is a valid one, and if Tesla is supposed to "learn" from this matter to avoid confusing anyone else in the manner which you indicate that the did prior, well then it's looking like those customers paid 20 grand each towards Tesla's tuition to "learn" such.

With that said, as I see it, any and all confusion on this matter, rests with the customers who did not bother to find out what 691 horsepower motor power meant.

Are you for real mr or mrs EE, or are you just arguing this because you do not have other better things to do? You seem at least very eager to keep this tread alive and your “crusade” going…

Given that Tesla already have changed the way they market their HP numbers that THEY already have learned their lesson even if you have not (and probably never will (we have a saying in Norway that: “No one is as blind as the person that do not want to see”. That is fine by me.)).

 

[P85DEE]

Are you for real mr or mrs EE, or are you just arguing this because you do not have other better things to do? You seem at least very eager to keep this tread alive and your “crusade” going…

Given that Tesla already have changed the way they market their HP numbers that THEY already have learned their lesson even if you have not (and probably never will (we have a saying in Norway that: “No one is as blind as the person that do not want to see”. That is fine by me.)).

I knew this was coming.:biggrin:

If all that they need to do, is throw some of us a bone, while continuing to refer to "horsepower motor power" prominently on their website in order to make some of us pipe down and think that radical change has happened here, well then I'm fine with letting those vocal customers think that.

Since most of them already bought, what exactly does it do for the ones who were griping the loudest?

Notice which number they put the asterisk by.

As long as the company doesn't get hurt by those who didn't take the time to determine that "691 horsepower" and "691 horsepower motor power" are not one and the same, then great.

I have to say though, that I laughed out loud when I read that part in bold.

 

[tomas]

Let's be clear: there is no ad copy. Do you mean website?

 

[P85DEE]

Let's be clear: there is no ad copy. Do you mean website?

Yes, website. Sorry.

 

[Andyw2100]

1. The number will grow "based on people hearing about it." Great (sarcasm) and I agree. In my opinion, it won't grow based on "hp was promised to me, I relied on it, and I didn't get it" (those people have been frustrated from the start and are well-aware of what is going on) but it will grow based on, "hey, look, we can get something free here". Also, in my opinion, that 25% number includes bandwagon jumpers. The real number of those who actually relied on the hp number, and wouldn't have purchased the vehicle is hp was advertised differently (which is the true test in my mind for compensation*) is probably far lower than 25%.

The number will grow because many P85D owners didn't know their cars were not making 691 HP. The percentage of P85D owners that read the forums is relatively small.

Also where do you get the idea that only those P85D owners who would not have purchased if the real HP had been known should receive any sort of compensation? All P85D owners who purchased expecting 691 HP received less than that, so all are due something, whether they would have purchased the car anyway or not.

* "compensation" should be Tesla must buy the vehicle back for full cost paid including taxes, etc. and then ban them for life. Those truly affected won't care anyway since they wouldn't have bought in the first place, nor would anyone want to buy from a company they believe deceived them, and it will be a true test to determine the legitimate class entitled to compensation.

Again, I'm not sure how you are reaching these conclusions. I don't think anyone has said "No P85D buyer would have bought if they had known the true HP." Some have said they would have opted for the 85D instead. Some would still have bought the P85D. That doesn't mean they should not get some sort of adjustment or compensation for the fact that Tesla did not deliver on the original promise.

IMO, "compensation", if any is forthcoming, should include purchasing the vehicle back, and then banning those who took advantage of that opportunity, from ever purchasing even so much as a Tesla key chain afterwards for stirring this trouble.

As you have already alluded, anyone who was actually "injured" here, won't care anyway, since their position is that they would not have bought the car in the first place had the hp been advertised differently, nor would anyone want to buy from a company which they believed had cheated them anyway.

That's not my position. It's not the position of many P85D owners. Many of us also don't believe that Tesla intentionally "cheated us." We believe they made a mistake, and that they should correct their mistake.