Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Krugerrand]

Compensation that involves punishment of the "compensated" is a bit absurd IMO.

Depends which side of the fence you're standing on. I think it would be entirely 'fair' to give back a full refund - LESS 'usage' charge to the point (date) of complaint, and then impose a 'no further business between company and individual'. That can even be viewed as a punishment for both sides, but at least there would be no 'repeat performance' - something that some people live for (I acknowledge not everyone is like that, thus the use of the word 'some', but Tesla doesn't know who those people might be so best to just group everyone and move on.)

 

[LetsGoFast]

IMO, "compensation", if any is forthcoming, should include purchasing the vehicle back, and then banning those who took advantage of that opportunity, from ever purchasing even so much as a Tesla key chain afterwards for stirring this trouble.
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And if you haven't been injured "that badly" well then it's time to quit complaining about this matter.

It is an interesting customer service approach you propose. Should you have a complaint about a company, they should only compensate you in conjunction with blacklisting you. When you combine that with a theory that if you aren't willing to accept the compensation on offer you should be preventing from voicing a complaint, it explains a lot about your thought processes. It would be a fine approach for a company whose primary focus was on preventing bad press rather than building a business through word-of-mouth.

 

[brianman]

This thread lives on because people that feel misled seek closure.

For at least the last 50 posts, completely disagree.

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Tesla ... giving those who took the shot at them

Perhaps I'm alone on this, but I found this phrasing offensive to pretty much everyone that's posted on TMC in any thread I've read regarding this general area of concern. FYI.

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Depends which side of the fence you're standing on. I think it would be entirely 'fair' to give back a full refund - LESS 'usage' charge to the point (date) of complaint, and then impose a 'no further business between company and individual'.

You're welcome to that opinion. I simply don't agree, and frankly consider that clause unfair to both parties. The customer is "black marked" as a Tesla buyer -- losing out on opportunity on future products. Tesla loses the customer forever. Punishment for both parties -- independent of the remedy for the issue at hand -- still seems absurd to me.

Also see this post:

It is an interesting customer service approach you propose. Should you have a complaint about a company, they should only compensate you in conjunction with blacklisting you. When you combine that with a theory that if you aren't willing to accept the compensation on offer you should be preventing from voicing a complaint, it explains a lot about your thought processes. It would be a fine approach for a company whose primary focus was on preventing bad press rather than building a business through word-of-mouth.

 

[Andyw2100]

Perhaps I'm alone on this, but I found this phrasing offensive to pretty much everyone that's posted on TMC in any thread I've read regarding this general area of concern. FYI.

You're not alone. Not by any means.

It's just that I, and I expect others, have stopped responding every time P85DEE or someone else says something that we take offense to, because if we responded every time our fingers would probably be bleeding.

I now typically only respond to the most offensive comments, or the ones I find most egregiously wrong. I just don't have the energy to continue going around and around in the same circles.

 

[P85DEE]

It is an interesting customer service approach you propose. Should you have a complaint about a company, they should only compensate you in conjunction with blacklisting you. When you combine that with a theory that if you aren't willing to accept the compensation on offer you should be preventing from voicing a complaint, it explains a lot about your thought processes. It would be a fine approach for a company whose primary focus was on preventing bad press rather than building a business through word-of-mouth.

If we were just talking about "complaining" here, well then I can see your argument.

However some of what I've seen in here, at least to me appears to go beyond just the typical complaint.

Talk of deception, to me that goes a bit beyond the typical complaint.

Suggesting that owners are due some form of compensation for an error which was arguably their own, goes beyond the typical complaint.

What I'm suggesting here, is that those who feel that they've been deceived, or otherwise wronged in this matter, to the point to where they've been shortchanged on their horsepower to the extent they say, to the extent that they've been shortchanged on their 0-60 numbers which they claim, and to the extent that their cars don't perform any better than the next model which is $20,000.00 cheaper, well then the only fair, rational and reasonable remedy here is to put things back as they were before they were deceived or otherwise wronged, and allow them to buy another vehicle of their choosing with the proceeds they spent when they got shortchanged.

There is no point in capitulating to the demands of those who would go through legal channels to "force" you to meet their demands, and then turn right back around and put yourself in the same position to go through the same thing, by continuing a business relationship with that group.

Some probably would not go after Tesla again for another issue that they felt "cheated" on.

However some may.

Since it's impossible to tell just who would, better to cut with the entire group.

 

[Andyw2100]

Suggesting that owners are due some form of compensation for an error which was arguably their own, goes beyond the typical complaint.

What I'm suggesting here, is that those who feel that they've been deceived, or otherwise wronged in this matter, the only fair and reasonable remedy here is to put things back as they were before they were deceived or otherwise wronged, and allow them to buy another vehicle of their choosing with the proceeds they spent when they got shortchanged.

There is an argument, as you acknowledge, over who is to blame here.

On the one-hand you acknowledge that there is an argument, but then your resolution does not allow for the fact that Tesla could be responsible.

If Tesla is determined to be responsible, or chooses to accept responsibility then what? Would you still advocate for the resolution you're advocating for now?

 

[wk057]

You're not alone. Not by any means.

It's just that I, and I expect others, have stopped responding every time P85DEE or someone else says something that we take offense to, because if we responded every time our fingers would probably be bleeding.

I now typically only respond to the most offensive comments, or the ones I find most egregiously wrong. I just don't have the energy to continue going around and around in the same circles.

I've pretty much given up on public posting on this matter entirely and am happy continuing informative and productive discussions I've been having in private with reasonable individuals, most of whom have already left this and other threads due to the constant attacks, offensive accusations, and overall harassment from the people who are so bent on needing to absolve their beloved Tesla from the perception of any wrong doing. It's not everyone by any means, but there are enough that make continued productive public discussions impossible and unpleasant. I would say you know who you are, but I'm going to assume at this point that they don't even realize what they're doing anymore.

Honestly, I would just suggest that others do the same. As much as I hate seeing misinformation spread like wildfire, I just can't justify the personal efforts needed to combat it.

 

[dsm363]

I've pretty much given up on public posting on this matter entirely and am happy continuing informative and productive discussions I've been having in private with reasonable individuals, most of whom have already left this and other threads due to the constant attacks, offensive accusations, and overall harassment from the people who are so bent on needing to absolve their beloved Tesla from the perception of any wrong doing. It's not everyone by any means, but there are enough that make continued productive public discussions impossible and unpleasant. I would say you know who you are, but I'm going to assume at this point that they don't even realize what they're doing anymore.

If there are personal attacks or harassment please report it. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make that harassment. I'm glad you've found reasonable people to talk with you though.

 

[brianman]

If there are personal attacks or harassment please report it. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make that harassment. I'm glad you've found reasonable people to talk with you though.

Good point about reporting -- that tends to get directed moderator attention (as designed).

That said, the tone overall has been out of hand for a while and it's unfortunate that folks have checked out of the "public" discussion not because the issue has been resolved or positions have been identified and accepted, but because of perceived bullying. Formal "personal attacks" and "harassment" are specific types of issues, but general broad bullying unfortunately happens a lot lately (and perhaps it did before but escaped my notice). The value of TMC is diminishing because of it. (You'll note that some of us have nearly "checked out" entirely.) I still plan on attending Connect (I'm optimistic and I have friends I want to reconnect with), but the forum is less appealing lately.

As an example, the (ex-)mods tend to chime in (Bonnie especially, kudos to her) when people jump in with "troll!" for threads started by new members reporting service issues, and such. But when it comes to the word "horsepower" apparently different rules seem to apply for some reason.

 

[P85DEE]

There is an argument, as you acknowledge, over who is to blame here.

On the one-hand you acknowledge that there is an argument, but then your resolution does not allow for the fact that Tesla could be responsible.

If Tesla is determined to be responsible, or chooses to accept responsibility then what? Would you still advocate for the resolution you're advocating for now?

Thats a big "if".

But I'm primarily phrasing my comment to include "arguably" on the off chance that Tesla is culpable here.

I suppose that just about anything is possible and I'm making the qualification I'm my statement based on that premise.

But from what I've seen till now, in my estimation this matter grew out of some consumers not bothering to make the effort to determine if "691 horsepower" meant the same thing as "691 horsepower motor power".

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

I can't believe my cartoon offended someone whose position I support. You can't trust cartoons these days.

 

[LetsGoFast]

If we were just talking about "complaining" here, well then I can see your argument.

Those were your own words (since deleted) saying that if I'm non interested in your hypothetical offer to give me my money back and disassociate with Tesla that I should "quit complaining about the matter." In fact, I really only bothered to "complain" because of your over the top approach. As a rule, I've lost interest in this discussion some time ago, which I assume is one of your goals.

In any event, as far as I am aware, Tesla has offered no compensation with or without a blacklist nor have I asked them to do so. I would suggest that including a blacklist as part of the process in Norway would be against their interests.

 

[JonG]

Thats a big "if".

But I'm primarily phrasing my comment to include "arguably" on the off chance that Tesla is culpable here.

I suppose that just about anything is possible and I'm making the qualification I'm my statement based on that premise.

But from what I've seen till now, in my estimation this matter grew out of some consumers not bothering to make the effort to determine if "691 horsepower" meant the same thing as "691 horsepower motor power".

silly silly people for not researching emerging technology standards and being foolish to read reviews online that talked about 691hp cars which tesla did not step in and say 'Hold on everyone... It's not what you think'. If I misquoted you, you would step in. Seems it's ok for Tesla not go. I don't buy that, not for one minute.

The same people are also silly if they live in HK for not determining whether it would be legally allowed or not to have AP.

Tesla seems to have a lot of ignorant customers.

 

[LetsGoFast]

That said, the tone overall has been out of hand for a while and it's unfortunate that folks have checked out of the "public" discussion not because the issue has been resolved or positions have been identified and accepted, but because of perceived bullying. Formal "personal attacks" and "harassment" are specific types of issues, but general broad bullying unfortunately happens a lot lately (and perhaps it did before but escaped my notice). The value of TMC is diminishing because of it. (You'll note that some of us have nearly "checked out" entirely.) I still plan on attending Connect (I'm optimistic and I have friends I want to reconnect with), but the forum is less appealing lately

Maybe this is the wrong place for that discussion, but I agree with you about the overall decline of the quality of discourse on TMC generally. Every so often one finds an online community that for one reason or another has attracted a certain sort of person with whom you feel a certain connection and it is always a joy to locate one. I've been lucky enough to find three or four over the years and when I first discovered TMC it seemed to be one of those. However, the tone has seemed increasingly antagonistic over the comparitively short time I've been here and it is regretable. For what its worth, it has become much more like every other car forum I've ever been a part of. That's not a good thing.

 

[brianman]

Tesla seems to have a lot of ignorant customers.

I know it's out of context, but let's run with that conclusion for a minute.

The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Tesla Motors

overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution.

If this remains the purpose of the company, then making sure customers and Tesla are completely on the same page about fundamental characteristics such as "horsepower" is dead on critical for the mission. Especially since we seem to have so many ignorant customers. And there will be more of them. The early adopters are generally the least ignorant in the sales timeline.


As such, J.B.'s post was a great opportunity to step back and actually clarify the situation -- with numbers, charts, science -- rather than prose that worked hard to avoid numbers like
"691".

Compare:
A Most Peculiar Test Drive | Tesla Motors
Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors

Also, on that note, look how much effort Elon put into saying "No, you got it wrong" to NYT. But not a peep about "Well, 691hp isn't really the number of interest when it comes to the entire system of the vehicle. Oh right, and when I say '691hp' I really mean '691 motor hp' -- I should probably adjust my phrasing in interviews and test drives."

 

[P85DEE]

Those were your own words (since deleted) saying that if I'm non interested in your hypothetical offer to give me my money back and disassociate with Tesla that I should "quit complaining about the matter." In fact, I really only bothered to "complain" because of your over the top approach. As a rule, I've lost interest in this discussion some time ago, which I assume is one of your goals.

In any event, as far as I am aware, Tesla has offered no compensation with or without a blacklist nor have I asked them to do so. I would suggest that including a blacklist as part of the process in Norway would be against their interests.

Actually I think my words are still there.

But purely out of curiosity, what sense does it make for one to complain if one is not interested in having a "wrong" righted?

 

[JonG]

I know it's out of context, but let's run with that conclusion for a minute.

The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Tesla Motors


If this remains the purpose of the company, then making sure customers and Tesla are completely on the same page about fundamental characteristics such as "horsepower" is dead on critical for the mission. Especially since we seem to have so many ignorant customers. And there will be more of them. The early adopters are generally the least ignorant in the sales timeline.


As such, J.B.'s post was a great opportunity to step back and actually clarify the situation -- with numbers, charts, science -- rather than prose that worked hard to avoid numbers like
"691".

Compare:
A Most Peculiar Test Drive | Tesla Motors
Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors

Also, on that note, look how much effort Elon put into saying "No, you got it wrong" to NYT. But not a peep about "well, 691hp isn't really the number of interest when it comes to the entire system of the vehicle".

i agree - I'm just not sure whether you are defending them or accusing them of failing. The JB post took a long time to be delivered and ironically his assertion around the meaningless nature of HP in EV was then undone by the publication of real battery limited HP.

 

[brianman]

i agree - I'm just not sure whether you are defending them or accusing them of failing. The JB post took a long time to be delivered and ironically his assertion around the meaningless nature of HP in EV was then undone by the publication of real battery limited HP.

Really? I thought it was pretty clear.

Clarifying: I think the handling of the P85D/691 issue has been counter to the mission. Speaking for myself, I don't even mention horsepower when talking to (non TMC) people about Model S anymore. When they bring it up, I hesitate while I try to figure out what is the right way to speak to that particular audience. I'm frustrated that Tesla has put us in this position as customers and supporters.

 

[P85DEE]

silly silly people for not researching emerging technology standards

Well, if it's "emerging technology", and "emerging technology standards" are involved, and one is thinking of taking the plunge, well then wouldn't that be a cause for even more research on the part of the consumer?

...and being foolish to read reviews online that talked about 691hp cars

Well I think that it goes without saying that one cannot believe everything that one reads.

I don't see where Tesla said anything on their website with regard to P85D other than 691 horsepower motor power.

..which tesla did not step in and say 'Hold on everyone... It's not what you think'. If I misquoted you, you would step in. Seems it's ok for Tesla not go. I don't buy that, not for one minute.

No entity can be expected to step in each and every time it is misquoted.

The same people are also silly if they live in HK for not determining whether it would be legally allowed or not to have AP.

I just glanced at that thread, but I believe that their government just changed the rules over there with regard to that???

Thus the beef is not with Tesla. They delivered what they promised. If the rules have been changed so that you can't use what they sold you in the area where you live, well then that's not Tesla's fault.

If I buy a product which is not legal for use where I live, or which ends up being legislated out of use where I live, well then that's not the manufacturer's fault

Tesla seems to have a lot of ignorant customers.

Actually Tesla has some extremely bright customers.

The trouble is, sometimes exceptionally bright people can still make mistakes.

Mistakes such as not finding out what was meant by "691 horsepower motor power", as opposed to just assuming that it simply meant "691 horsepower"

 

[brianman]

No entity can be expected to step in each and every time it is misquoted.

In part because everyone at Tesla is afraid to step in when Elon misspeaks.