Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[jcaspar]

From a 70 MPH? Not in a million years.

Well of course not! Won't do well at high speeds with with one gear. I was talking 1/4 mile.

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Some people are always looking for something to be upset about....

Agree. Lots of room for vagueness. That's the problem. Tesla left it open to interpretation and didn't correct people right away. People heard what they wanted and now are upset reality and what they understood didn't align.

 

[electrish]

The D was just not fully cooked when shipped and the OTA update was going to complete the package. That looks to me like Elon was earnestly pitching something he ended up not being able to pull off. That is just my interpretation.

I also believe this to be the case.
Didn't the P85D get introduced with three acceleration settings?
I can't find the reference, but I believe they were "normal", "sport", and "insane", possibly the equivalent to the current "sport", "insane", and "ludicrous".
Or is my memory failing me?

 

[AWDtsla]

From a 70 MPH? Not in a million years.

So the hellcat wins when you give it a 70 mph headstart? OK.

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Once the Hellcat hooks up, there's just no contest at all. Put that Hellcat power plant in a vehicle with AWD, and it could well stomp the P85D off the line, too.

I smell a class action lawsuit because dodge didn't put AWD in the hellcat. All it's horsepower is nearly useless.

 

[P85DEE]

...... Tesla announced an OTA update to address higher speed performance on or about the time people started realizing the P85D was no faster than a P85 above about 40 mph. The D was just not fully cooked when shipped and the OTA update was going to complete the package. That looks to me like Elon was earnestly pitching something he ended up not being able to pull off. That is just my interpretation.

The timing fits. And also fits with your prior comments on Ludicrous.

This showed up back in January of 2015, so the car being discussed, had to exist prior to then.

Rumor: P85D firmware update to increase 0-60 performance to 2.8s

6 months later, I believe that it was July 17, 2015, Ludicrous is announced.

So they knew how to get the P85D to 0-60 in 2.8 seconds as far back as January of 2015.

Why we are pushing nearly a year before any customer cars get to this point is a mystery.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

AWD: When you pull up next to a car on the freeway that has around 500-600 hp, your "691 hp" could pull away from it if you both punched it, right? No, the result isn't pretty for the Tesla driver.

Hence, some disappointment. I don't choose to trivialize that emotion.

 

[Andyw2100]

Didn't the P85D get introduced with three acceleration settings?
I can't find the reference, but I believe they were "normal", "sport", and "insane", possibly the equivalent to the current "sport", "insane", and "ludicrous".
Or is my memory failing me?

It was introduced that way, at the D announcement.

I do not believe, though, that the three modes were analogous to sport, insane, and ludicrous. I think Tesla just dropped normal, to go with sport and insane, which becomes sport and ludicrous on ludicrous enabled cars.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Jian,

The only modification I would make to your second paragraph is that I came away from the P85D launch thinking the PD had 50% more something than my P+. It did have better low end but was effectively the same car above about 40 mph. I can not let Elon off the hook on that one and believe he intended for the PD to have better passing performance and simply could not pull it off without some hardware changes.

I'm pretty certain I know how an EV works and I am also pretty certain Elon thought he was delivering more than he actually ended up delivering. He thought he could ship almost there and bring it up to there with a software update. This time it bit him in the butt because Inconel Springs and Smart Fuses do not go over WiFi.

During the D event Elon talked about 50% more power in the context of launching the car. If you go back and listen to what he actually said, you'll see that he is talking about launch from the stand still, "like taking from a carrier deck". He was clearly talking about acceleration from zero speed, unless, of course you think that "taking off a carrier deck" is good way to describe passing performance at highway speeds, rather than initial burst of power from a stand still.:smile:

Here is the transcript of what Elon actually said - I've posted it back in September:

Everything improves about the car with dual motor. There is no technical drawback in this case

And we've also in the highest power version, P85D, actually retained the larger motor and added medium size motor to the front which basically gives a car half a gain as much power. Because a P85 was sort of pretty good, you know on a power front as probably bunch of you have those cars, but this car is nuts, it is like taking off the carrier deck. It's just bananas. It's like having your own personal roller-coaster

 

[Andyw2100]

During the D event Elon talked about 50% more power in the context of launching the car. If you go back and listen to what he actually said, you'll see that he is talking about launch from the stand still, "like taking from a carrier deck". He was clearly talking about acceleration from zero speed, unless, of course you think that "taking off a carrier deck" is good way to describe passing performance at highway speeds, rather than initial burst of power from a stand still.:smile:

Here is the transcript of what Elon actually said - I've posted it back in September:

That interpretation is really stretching it, to the point of being absurd. How can you possibly infer from that statement that Musk was only talking about launching when he said "half again as much power?" Are the two engines also used only for launching, because he talks about them in the very same sentence.

The much more obvious interpretation is that Musk was talking about the power characteristics of the car in general, and then gave two examples to support the "half again as much power" statement, which were his examples of taking off from a carrier deck and having your own personal roller coaster.

 

[vgrinshpun]

That interpretation is really stretching it, to the point of being absurd. How can you possibly infer from that statement that Musk was only talking about launching when he said "half again as much power?" Are the two engines also used only for launching, because he talks about them in the very same sentence.

The much more obvious interpretation is that Musk was talking about the power characteristics of the car in general, and then gave two examples to support the "half again as much power" statement, which were his examples of taking off from a carrier deck and having your own personal roller coaster.

Elon was explaining the effects of having 50% more power. The examples he chose to emphasize this are specific to launching the car, not descriptive of the car passing performance at highway speed. In fact, nowhere Tesla had any claims about passing performance at highway speed. The car was always advertised using 0 to 60mph, and comparison of this time with McLaren F1.

 

[jcaspar]

This is true of every electric vehicle with a single gear. Great acceleration off the line but they lose "gas" as the speed increases. This was well understood with the Tesla, at least it was when I bought my P85 in 2013. This was the vivid difference between my Viper and my Tesla. I never have seen Tesla post 0 to 150 (135?) times which are routinely with the Viper.

AWD: When you pull up next to a car on the freeway that has around 500-600 hp, your "691 hp" could pull away from it if you both punched it, right? No, the result isn't pretty for the Tesla driver.

Hence, some disappointment. I don't choose to trivialize that emotion.

 

[Canuck]

this car is nuts, it is like taking off the carrier deck. It's just bananas. It's like having your own personal roller-coaster

The most obvious interpretation is acceleration. In fact, that's the only reasonable interpretation. You don't need a "carrier deck" if you're only dealing with the speed of a jet. That reference is for the take off acceleration from a "carrier deck". Roller-coasters are, of course, synonymous with acceleration. To suggest any other interpretation is more obvious must neglect or overlook the reason for those analogies.

 

[Andyw2100]

Elon was explaining the effects of having 50% more power. The examples he chose to emphasize this are specific to launching the car, not descriptive of the car passing performance at highway speed. In fact, nowhere Tesla had any claims about passing performance at highway speed. The car was always advertised using 0 to 60mph, and comparison of this time with McLaren F1.

I think this basically translates to "Look--a kitten."

 

[jcaspar]

The McLaren F1 is no kitten!:biggrin:

I think this basically translates to "Look--a kitten."

 

[tomas]

 

[vgrinshpun]

I think this basically translates to "Look--a kitten."

What this basically translates to is that some of us are fixated on the conspiracy theories, and take any and all available information only after disposing anything and everything that does not fit said conspiracy theories. The problem is that this results in a parallel universe, the one in which information is taken out of context and cherry picked to the point that does not have anything in common with the reality.

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[Canuck]

Yep. There's merit to the arguments on both sides. When one side, or certain people from one side, can't even acknowledge the obvious (i.e. "carrier deck" and "roller coaster") then the parallel universe, or living in a bubble, comes into play.

 

[Auzie]

 

[Andyw2100]

Yep. There's merit to the arguments on both sides. When one side, or certain people from one side, can't even acknowledge the obvious (i.e. "carrier deck" and "roller coaster") then the parallel universe, or living in a bubble, comes into play.

Of course carrier deck and roller coaster referred to acceleration. There's no question about that. Those were two examples Musk used to paint a picture of how exciting the car was, because the 0-30 is where the car really excels.

But before he got to those examples he said that everything improves about the car with dual motor. He went on to say that in the highest power version Tesla had kept the larger motor, and added a medium sized front motor, which provided "half again as much power." He was still clearly talking about the overall attributes of the car. "Everything improves." Two motors. If you believe that the "half again as much power" comment only referred to launching, then you'd have to believe that the dual motors also only are applicable for launches, BECAUSE HE TALKED ABOUT THEM IN THE SAME SENTENCE.

He then went on to make the statements about carrier decks and roller coasters to drive home his point about how powerful the car was, but that in no way means that he was suggesting that the power he had been discussing applied only in those situations. That's just not a reasonable conclusion to draw when watching the presentation.

Musk was introducing the car--the whole car--to the public for the first time. He was not talking about one small aspect of the car--launches--when saying "half again as much power."

 

[Bill D]

Yep. There's merit to the arguments on both sides...

I think the arguments are rooted in two key facts:

1. Tesla buyers say the overstated HP led them to believe their P85D would accelerate like cars with comparable HP and weight.

2. Documents Tesla later corrected, prove they overstated HP, but those original documents also specified acceleration (0-60 and 1/4 mile) which P85Ds met.

[FONT=&amp]In other words, Tesla's mistake was overstating HP. The buyer's mistake was ignoring the acceleration specification. [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Do these mistakes cancel 50/50? If not, which mistake trumps the other and by how much? [/FONT]I don't have an opinion on the answers to these questions at this point and I don't own a P85D.

 

[kennybobby]

During the D event Elon talked about 50% more power in the context of launching the car. If you go back and listen to what he actually said, you'll see that he is talking about launch from the stand still, "like taking from a carrier deck". He was clearly talking about acceleration from zero speed, unless, of course you think that "taking off a carrier deck" is good way to describe passing performance at highway speeds, rather than initial burst of power from a stand still.:smile:

Here is the transcript of what Elon actually said - I've posted it back in September:

Everything improves about the car with dual motor. There is no technical drawback in this case

And we've also in the highest power version, P85D, actually retained the larger motor and added medium size motor to the front which basically gives a car half a gain as much power. Because a P85 was sort of pretty good, you know on a power front as probably bunch of you have those cars, but this car is nuts, it is like taking off the carrier deck. It's just bananas. It's like having your own personal roller-coaster

And i notice that he didn't say that 'the motors' have half again as much power, but that's what he was talking about right--the motor power, not the car...?