Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[P85DEE]

I am not sure about the 60D but a 70D has 332 real motor power hp while a 85D has 422 real motor power horse power.

The miseleading imaginary motor power hp, which can never ever be reached (and are therefore imaginary), are of course a lot higher.

That's great information about the 70D.

But I'm primarily interested in the thoughts of rms-e about the 60D.

That what I'm trying to get clarification on because it has the same listed "horsepower motor power" number as the 85D.

If there were an attempt to deceive, well then why is is plainly stated that they have the same "horsepower motor power", but it is clear that they perform quite differently from 0-60?

 

[Krugerrand]

Sorry, but selling a 469 hp car as a 691 hp car should raise everywhere on this planet some eyebrowes. Or on other planets - wherever there is intelligent life.

Hp *motor power* fully electrical long range vehicle. The first of its kind, such that businesses like Consumer Reports doesn't even have a vehicle rating system that accurately fits assessing it. Meaning, intelligent life on this planet doesn't really grasp yet how the vehicle works, that current vehicle standards around the world don't necessarily apply and thusly why this conversation is happening in the first place. We've entered the time period where the belief that the world is flat is being turned on its head because it's really round.

The real reason people are upset is not because of some arbitrary number but because *money* is involved. People get all kinds of upset when the root of all evil is in play. :wink:

 

[rns-e]

That doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that any time you are buying a product that is new or you are unfamiliar with that you have zero responsibility to educate yourself before purchasing? So, if you were about to purchase your first puppy, the vendor of said puppy has all the responsibility about whether or not you should be buying that puppy in the first place? That you have zero responsibility to research what breed of dog suits your personality and living situation? That you have zero responsibility to educate yourself on how to properly care for the puppy or train the puppy?

I'm saying that Tesla has the responsibility to present and not withhold any relevant information regarding their product in order for the average buyer to make an informed decision. In the P85D case I believe that withholding the battery limited information and the roll out measurement is vital information withheld by Tesla. Information that was not available on their website, and not passed on by their sales people.

And again my primary point - why did Tesla withheld that information and why did it take Tesla a full year to start displaying that information, when Tesla used to think it was valuable information.

So while I agree I have a responsibility as a buyer, in this case, you could say I was obstructed in gathering all relevant information, since Tesla did not make the information available

 

[Laserbrain]

If there were an attempt to deceive, well then why is is plainly stated that they have the same "horsepower motor power", but it is clear that they perform quite differently from 0-60?

Who cares about the imaginary motor power when the real motor power is limited by the battery? The 85D battery limits less than the 70D battery and therefore the 85D has more real horsepower and has better acceleration.

 

[Krugerrand]

When I ordered my P85D, way back in 2014, I was told by the Tesla Sales Advisors that the P85D had performance comparable to a Lamborghini. At that time, they also compared the P85+ to an M5.

I am 100% sure that these Sales Advisors were in no way trying to trick their prospects by making these comparisons. They just were as confused by the numbers as we were.

Question: Did you own a P85+ prior and if so, did you agree with their comparison of it to an M5?

 

[Laserbrain]

Meaning, intelligent life on this planet doesn't really grasp yet how the vehicle works, that current vehicle standards around the world don't necessarily apply and thusly why this conversation is happening in the first place.

Sorry, but this is rubbish. Electric drives are nothing knew. And horsepower is a scientific unit - it does not change whether you create it by using an electrice motor, an ICE or a hamster in a wheel.

The real reason people are upset is not because of some arbitrary number but because *money* is involved. People get all kinds of upset when the root of all evil is in play.

I have no money invested. I am upset, because I want to be a Tesla fan, because I think electric cars are the best thing since the invention of beer. But I cannot be a Tesla fan, as long as they show unethical behaviour. Which is: using misleading marketing information - or how I would call it: scamming their customers.

But luckily, I can be a Tesla fan again, because Telsa has come to their senses and is finally showing real horsepower on their website.

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm saying that Tesla has the responsibility to present and not withhold any relevant information regarding their product in order for the average buyer to make an informed decision. In the P85D case I believe that withholding the battery limited information and the roll out measurement is vital information withheld by Tesla. Information that was not available on their website, and not passed on by their sales people.

Okay, that I fully understand and can wrap my brain around. The puppy vendor has to tell you that the parents of the puppy are not in fact purebreds, or carry hip dysplasia etc...

And again my primary point - why did Tesla withheld that information and why did it take Tesla a full year to start displaying that information, when Tesla used to think it was valuable information.

This is where we part company. I'm not convinced that Tesla withheld the information in any attempt to fool you. I believe they simply didn't understand it's importance for some people...specifically people who were purchasing solely on the HP number and how they (the buyers) thought that would create specific performance dynamic. Those buyers didn't understand that you can't compare an ICE to a BEV on that number metric and thusly made an incorrect assumption. For Tesla's part they didn't consider/overlooked that buyer position. From where I'm sitting, there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone. I'd like to see the upset buyers take on their portion of the responsibility.

 

[P85DEE]

Who cares about the imaginary motor power when the real motor power is limited by the battery? The 85D battery limits less than the 70D battery and therefore the 85D has more real horsepower and has better acceleration.

"Limits less" you say.

So, the "motors" of each, actually have the same claimed "horsepower" capability that Tesla says that they have, but depending upon the "battery" and the "limits" that the battery imposes, that determines what you call the "real horsepower" and "acceleration"?

So it's not that the motors don't have the 691 horsepower motor power capability, it's that the "battery" dictates what is and what is not going to happen in terms of "horsepower".

Is that right???

Well then since the 85D and the P85D have the same "battery" how come they don't make the same "real horsepower" and have the "same acceleration"??????

Now, before you answer that, do the 70D and the 85D have the same front and rear motors?

How about the 85D and the P85D?

One more time, I don't care about the 70D, I'm asking about the 60D and the fact that it has the same "horsepower motor power" as the 85D, why is there such a discrepancy in how they perform?

If there were an attempt to deceive, then why are they listed with the same horsepower motor power, but with significantly different performance capability to 60 mph?

 

[Krugerrand]

Sorry, but this is rubbish. Electric drives are nothing knew. And horsepower is a scientific unit - it does not change whether you create it by using an electrice motor, an ICE or a hamster in a wheel.

And yet we've got a whole bunch of people who didn't understand the specification of HP *motor power* nor how the battery and system limited passing performance at higher speeds.

 

[Laserbrain]

Those buyers didn't understand that you can't compare an ICE to a BEV on that number metric and thusly made an incorrect assumption. For Tesla's part they didn't consider/overlooked that buyer position.

Wrong again. Buyers compare a BEV with X horsepower with a BEV with Y horsepower and made assumptions based on X and Y. The problem is that Tesla gave a bogus number Y and therefore mislead the customers.

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Well then since the 85D and the P85D have the same "battery" how come they don't make the same "real horsepower" and have the "same acceleration"??????

Now, before you answer that, do the 70D and the 85D have the same front and rear motors?

How about the 85D and the P85D?

All kind of things could be different (gearing, software, weight on the rear axle...). Its not only the imaginary motor horsepower which is different.

Only one thing is sure: the P85D cannot create energy out of thin air. So if the battery limits the motor power to 469 hp, than the car has 469 hp motor power - not 691.

 

[dsm363]

Wrong again. Buyers compare a BEV with X horsepower with a BEV with Y horsepower and made assumptions based on X and Y. The problem is that Tesla gave a bogus number Y and therefore mislead the customers.

Tesla decided to make a shift with the P85D to displaying the 'motor horsepower' since that does have an implication on performance even when battery limited. It's not 'made up'. I see why it's confusing and I'm glad they clarified it but the number isn't 'made up' or meaningless. It's just not the number you wanted (which is now on the website).

All kind of things could be different (gearing, software, weight on the rear axle...). Its not only the imaginary motor horsepower which is different.

Only one thing is sure: the P85D cannot create energy out of thin air. So if the battery limits the motor power to 469 hp, than the car has 469 hp motor power - not 691.

You're right, they could be different. Was this confirmed by the early buyers with Tesla before giving them money for the car since this is a vital issue?

 

[rns-e]

Okay, that I fully understand and can wrap my brain around. The puppy vendor has to tell you that the parents of the puppy are not in fact purebreds, or carry hip dysplasia etc...

Exactly

This is where we part company. I'm not convinced that Tesla withheld the information in any attempt to fool you. I believe they simply didn't understand it's importance for some people...specifically people who were purchasing solely on the HP number and how they (the buyers) thought that would create specific performance dynamic. Those buyers didn't understand that you can't compare an ICE to a BEV on that number metric and thusly made an incorrect assumption. For Tesla's part they didn't consider/overlooked that buyer position. From where I'm sitting, there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone. I'd like to see the upset buyers take on their portion of the responsibility.

Ok, I understand your position, although I do not share it. I would like Tesla to take responsibility when it comes to the early buyers of the P85D and not just think everything is fine after changing their website after one year. But I think we understand each others position at this point.

 

[P85DEE]

Sorry, but this is rubbish. Electric drives are nothing knew. And horsepower is a scientific unit - it does not change whether you create it by using an electrice motor, an ICE or a hamster in a wheel......

Preach brotha......

"Horsepower is horsepower".

This is the precise reason why I said earlier, that anyone who bought this car without having any idea whatsoever as to what "horsepower motor power" meant, vs " SAE J1349 Certified horsepower", and how the two related, or did not relate, is in no position to complain.

 

[dsm363]

All kind of things could be different (gearing, weight on the rear axle...). Not only the horsepower of the motors are different.

Only one thing is sure: the P85D cannot create energy out of thin air. So if the battery limits the motor power to 469 hp, than the car has 469 hp motor power - not 691.

He was comparing the 85D and P85D which have the same battery so the horsepower should be the same, right? If hp motor power was a completely useless term why would two cars with the exact same battery perform differently if they have different stated 'motor power' totals but the exact same 'horsepower' since the motor power term is worthless?

 

[P85DEE]

...
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All kind of things could be different (gearing, weight on the rear axle...). Not only the horsepower of the motors are different.

Perhaps the gentleman from Germany would be kind enough to point to some documented examples of those differences.

Like ol' Adam said to Eve, "I'm game for any theory", and proof of said theory excites me even more. Otherwise it's just another case of one doing what .....what was the word rms-e used awhile back....."speculate". Isn't that what landed some in the pickle that they are in now?

 

[dsm363]

Preach brotha......

"Horsepower is horsepower".

This is the precise reason why I said earlier, that anyone who bought this car without having any idea whatsoever as to what "horsepower motor power" meant, vs " SAE J1349 Certified horsepower", and how the two related, or did not relate, is in no position to complain.

They have a right to complain as I see how the shift Tesla is confusing but might just be one of those learning moments and time to move on. The level of anger over this issue instead of simply enjoying a car with phenomenal performance is amazing. If you were expecting world class performance from a 691 hp motor power car above 100mph in a 5,000lb car with one gear then well this is another learning moment. Waiting until the car was tested out on the track might have been worth it before buying.

 

[Laserbrain]

He was comparing the 85D and P85D which have the same battery so the horsepower should be the same, right?

From the standpoint of physics: no.

If hp motor power was a completely useless term why would two cars with the exact same battery perform differently if they have different stated 'motor power' totals but the exact same 'horsepower' since the motor power term is worthless?

The imaginary motor power term is useless and misleading. They perform different because they are different machines and lets not forget we are talking about two machines working together which results in losses which are different when you use different machines. Is the imaginary motor power term a good proxy for this difference? No. It is not. It is misleading rubbish.

 

[P85DEE]

They have a right to complain as I see how the shift Tesla is confusing but might just be one of those learning moments and time to move on. The level of anger over this issue instead of simply enjoying a car with phenomenal performance is amazing. If you were expecting world class performance from a 691 hp motor power car above 100mph in a 5,000lb car with one gear then well this is another learning moment. Waiting until the car was tested out on the track might have been worth it before buying.

"Right to complain", OK, if that is your take.

But I don't see it.

It is my responsibility, and mine alone to thoroughly research a 6 figure purchase.

Should I fail in that endeavor, in the presence of available literature on consumer vehicle "horsepower", literature which has been available for the better part of a decade, which I can use in making my final purchasing decision which I am basing in large part, no, in huge part' on "horsepower",...... if I screw up, when the info was available to me, well then it falls squarely on no one else but me.

There has to be full accountability here.

And as I see it, this is not all on Tesla. Indeed, arguably none of it is on Tesla.

I could understand IF we had no current or modern certification or validation for manufacturer's horsepower claims.

But we do, and we have had, for the last decade now, just that.

 

[dsm363]

From the standpoint of physics: no.



The imaginary motor power term is useless and misleading. They perform different because they are different machines and lets not forget we are talking about two machines working together which results in losses which are different when you use different machines. Is the imaginary motor power term a good proxy for this difference? No. It is not. It is misleading rubbish.

How is 'they are different machines' an explanation? It may be misleading but it's not 'rubbish'. The same car with a bigger battery will gain more 'real' horsepower so motor power does mean something.

 

[dsm363]

"Right to complain", OK, if that is your take.

But I don't see it.

It is my responsibility, and mine alone to thoroughly research a 6 figure purchase.

Should I fail in that endeavor, in the presence of available literature on "horsepower", literature which has been available for the better part of a decade, which I can use in making my final decision which I am basing in large part, no, in huge part' on "horsepower, if I screw up, then it falls on no one else but me.

There has to be full accountability here.

And as I see it, this is not all on Tesla. Indeed, arguably none of it is on Tesla.

They have the right to complain in that everyone has the right to complain about anything. If there is a basis to that complaint is the issue here. I agree that painting this as Tesla is 100% at fault here in the US at least might not be warranted.