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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015

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As I said, it's based on the coincidence with model X new leak.

so rather than evaluate the opening of the line of credit on it's own merit, you've decided that a picture of the Model X, which didn't necessarily come from Tesla, showing up this morning is enough for you to bet that Tesla is doing some damage control because they know the credit line is a negative?

Maoing, beyond that flawed logic, have you not seen in the past several months multiple videos of this same Model X beta, getting oodles of attention here, but basically ignored everywhere else. A bit of coverage on green car enthusiast websites, but can you link even one article from a financial media outlet about the bunch of videos that have already been out for months?
 
Short term market reaction is illogical. In the past two ATHs, both accompanying with significant good news. So good merit event doesn't warrant positive price action. Btw, this is the first time we see falcon wing function, without TM's permission, I don't think anybody can take this picture.

so rather than evaluate the opening of the line of credit on it's own merit, you've decided that a picture of the Model X, which didn't necessarily come from Tesla, showing up this morning is enough for you to bet that Tesla is doing some damage control because they know the credit line is a negative?

Maoing, beyond that flawed logic, have you not seen in the past several months multiple videos of this same Model X beta, getting oodles of attention here, but basically ignored everywhere else. A bit of coverage on green car enthusiast websites, but can you link even one article from a financial media outlet about the bunch of videos that have already been out for months?
 
Short term market reaction is illogical. In the past two ATHs, both accompanying with significant good news. So good merit event doesn't warrant positive price action. Btw, this is the first time we see falcon wing function, without TM's permission, I don't think anybody can take this picture.

Lots of people have seen the falcon wing doors function. Every place the prototype has been, those doors have been opened. We've even seen pictures on Tesla's website of them functioning. What are you talking about?
 
Credit lines are usually for cash flow buffering when you are in an expanding business. They are even more helpful if you have an increase cash flow mismatch as your business expands. For Tesla this is very true. If, in Q3, they need to start paying for parts for the Model X production runs but don't expect revenues until Q4 or Q1 for those cars then a credit facility is a very useful (and traditional) financing tool.

The reason you want a credit facility is that you still need your cash for investment activities such as supercharges, stores, Lathrop, GF, etc.
 
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2504255-tesla-elon-musk-unveils-secret-2015-margin-target

In an interview yesterday with the Wall Street Journal, Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) CEO Elon Musk commented that Tesla would start generating "free cash flow beginning in Q3 of 2015" and could self-finance the construction of the gigafactory. This statement is likely to disappoint the bears for several reasons..

Looks this goal has been pushed out to Q4 instead. The key caveat is if model X can deliver on time in Q3 and ramp up production quickly as expected in Q4.
 
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2504255-tesla-elon-musk-unveils-secret-2015-margin-target



Looks this goal has been pushed out to Q4 instead. The key caveat is if model X can deliver on time in Q3 and ramp up production quickly as expected in Q4.

Maoing, Tesla's plan is to be free cash flow positive when they are producing the Model X in volume. You referenced an article from September 2014. Since then the roll out of the Model X has been pushed out a quarter or two. Thus it's old news that Tesla will be cash flow positive in Q4, possibly a little later.

As to your "key caveat"- while I'm about 80%+ confident Tesla will make their first Model X delivery in October at the latest, and while Elon has specifically said the Model X is having more extensive beta testing right now so it's production ramp can go substantially faster than the Model S (roughly twice as fast), something unexpected could happen in ramping up X production that slows down the ramp. I suspect that's what underlies the timing of creating a $500 million cash flow buffer. This is also why some of us think the line of credit is a positive.

Maoing, I've got a question for you. If the Model X does turn out to have a larger battery than the 85 kWh battery, and that larger battery begins to be offered with a Model S that gets let's say 50 more miles of highway driving, how do you think that will effect Model S sales?
 
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SteveG3, I can't answer your specific question below. But I think if panasonic does provide higher energy density battary, i.e. same battery pack but with more kWh and range, it'll definitely boost the overall model X/S sales.

Maoing, I've got a question for you. If the Model X does turn out to have a larger battery than the 85 kWh battery, and that larger battery begins to be offered with a Model S that gets let's say 50 more miles of highway driving, how do you think that will effect Model S sales?
 
SteveG3, I can't answer your specific question below. But I think if panasonic does provide higher energy density battary, i.e. same battery pack but with more kWh and range, it'll definitely boost the overall model X/S sales.

Thanks for your thoughts Maoing. I'd definitely agree with you that this would boost sales. We'll have to see if this happens. I sense it is more likely than not, so I see it as likely positive catalyst a little ahead of the timeframe of Q4 where Tesla is aiming to ramp up Model X production. While I think the market is already somewhat anticipating a positive reception to the Model X, I don't think the market is anticipating a substantial improvement to the Model S. The intro of the 70D and it's positive reception lifted the stock. I think a ~100kWh Model S would do the same, and I've not seen one article or analyst mention it. I think it's more likely than not that this happens within 3 months, perhaps as soon as some time in July.
 
Thanks for your thoughts Maoing. I'd definitely agree with you that this would boost sales. We'll have to see if this happens. I sense it is more likely than not, so I see it as likely positive catalyst a little ahead of the timeframe of Q4 where Tesla is aiming to ramp up Model X production. While I think the market is already somewhat anticipating a positive reception to the Model X, I don't think the market is anticipating a substantial improvement to the Model S. The intro of the 70D and it's positive reception lifted the stock. I think a ~100kWh Model S would do the same, and I've not seen one article or analyst mention it. I think it's more likely than not that this happens within 3 months, perhaps as soon as some time in July.

I definitely would see this as enhancing demand for the Model S. I'm indifferent to the ratio of S to X. Combined sells are what matters to me. I think with Model X coming on line we'll be sharply supply constrained for quite a while. So it won't be necessary to goose demand for the Model S for a year or so.

Nevertheless this would be good for the stock. First it will be important just to know that Tesla is making higher density cells. I suspect that this is the case with the S70D, but Tesla TMK has not conformed this. So confirming this would be a good deal.

Second, rolling out the S100D would establish that Tesla is not constrained in its supply of the higher density cells. If they are constrained, then they need to give priority to an X100 and X70, before S100. But doing so could also produce a serious Osborne effect for the S85D and SP85D. That is, if buyers know that a X100 is possible then it's just a matter of time before the S100D is available. So all this messiness is resolved once S100D is shipping. We'll know that there is not a substantial constraint on the supply of higher density cells.

Third, once investors know that higher density cells exist and can be produced in high enough numbers to market the S100D, then the final way this increases bullishness is by actually enhancing the demand for the Model S. Specifically, the Osborne effect is mitigated. To be sure, substantial demand for both an X100 and S100 exists, but Tesla will not be able to unlock the value of this demand until it can actually deliver these products.

Let me just speculate on one more thing. We know that with the Powerwall Tesla has two different cells, a heavy cycling cell with with 5000 cycle life and a light cycling cell with 1250 (?) cycle life. Now I know that these are not likely the cells Tesla would use in autos, but it still raises the question of whether Tesla can make a heavy cycling cell with high density suitable for auto. Imaging a 100kWh pack where 20 kWh has 5000 cycle life and the other 80 kWh is higher density cells with 1250 cycle life. This sort of hybrid pack would need a little more programming to cycle they heavy cycling cells heavily while protecting the other cells from over use. The resulting pack could have something like a 15 year / 250,000 mile warranty. That would be damn impressive. It gets to a level of durability that exceeds exceeds most ICE drivetrains. Of course if the heavy cycling cells are just a high density and no more costly than the other cell, then there may be no rationale for the hybrid battery design, just go with the more durable cells. Regardless, I'm wondering if we may see a longer lasting, higher density, cheaper to manufacture battery sometime soon. The combination would seal the fate of conventional ICE and would be very hard for automakers to fight against. There are many performance dimensions for batteries. Improvements along any dimension would be welcome news for shareholders.
 
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I definitely would see this as enhancing demand for the Model S. I'm indifferent to the ratio of S to X. Combined sells are what matters to me. I think with Model X coming on line we'll be sharply supply constrained for quite a while. So it won't be necessary to goose demand for the Model S for a year or so.

Nevertheless less this would be good for the stock. First it will be important just to know that Tesla is making higher density cells. I suspect that this is the case with the S70D, but Tesla TMK has not conformed this. So confirming this would be a good deal.

Second, rolling out the S100D would establish that Tesla is not constrained in its supply of the higher density cells. If they are constrained, then they need to give priority to an X100 and X70, before S100. But doing so could also produce a serious Osborne effect for the S85D and SP85D. That is, if buyers know that a X100 is possible then it's just a matter of time before the S100D is available. So all this messiness is resolved once S100D is shipping. We'll know that there is not a substantial constraint on the supply of higher density cells.

Third, once investors know that higher density cells exist and can be produced in high enough numbers to market the S100D, then the final way this increases bullishness is by actually enhancing the demand for the Model S. Specifically, the Osborne effect is mitigated. To be sure, substantial demand for both an X100 and S100 exists, but Tesla will not be able to unlock the value of this demand until it can actually deliver these products.

Let me just speculate on one more thing. We know that with the Powerwall Tesla has two different cells, a heavy cycling cell with with 5000 cycle life and a light cycling cell with 1250 (?) cycle life. Now I know that these are not likely the cells Tesla would use in autos, but it still raises the question of whether Tesla can make a heavy cycling cell with high density suitable for auto. Imaging a 100kWh pack where 20 kWh has 5000 cycle life and the other 80 kWh is higher density cells with 1250 cycle life. This sort of hybrid pack would need a little more programming to cycle they heavy cycling cells heavily while protecting the other cells from over use. The resulting pack could have something like a 15 year / 250,000 mile warranty. That would be damn impressive. It gets to a level of durability that exceeds exceeds most ICE drivetrains. Of course if the heavy cycling cells are just a high density and no more costly than the other cell, then there may be no rationale for the hybrid battery design, just go with the more durable cells. Regardless, I'm wondering if we may see a longer lasting, higher density, cheaper to manufacture battery sometime soon. The combination would seal the fate of conventional ICE and would be very hard for automakers to fight against. There are many performance dimensions for batteries. Improvements along any dimension would be welcome news for shareholders.

James, to your discussion of the timeline of introducing a new Model S battery... I'd be quite surprised if a bigger battery comes out for the X without one virtually immediately being offered for the S, for the very reason (undermining Model S sales) you mentioned. Indeed, if a bigger battery is coming, it's very likely a new chemistry, and Tesla has to wrestle with getting supply of the new cells up to levels that could handle their offering new packs in the S and X. In fact, it's occurred to me a few times in the past several months that one element in the delay of the Model X AND Tesla's guidance of lower first half volumes for the Model S vs. second half might actually be about transitioning to a new chemistry. To do this, Panasonic would have to produce cells with the old chemistry at lower volumes as they transition lines at their plants in a controlled manner to the new chemistry. That is, if this transition is occurring, as lines are being changed they're not producing cells, and so supply to Tesla would be down as the transition rolled through Panasonic's plants. We may be in a multi-month period of continually lowering supply of the old chemistry (consistent with low first half Model S volumes), and ramping up supply of the new chemistry (consistent with the 70D already having the new chemistry, as you suspect, from what's been ramping up of the new supply).

Consistent with this idea that a new chemistry is being transitioned in already, I'd mention that:

-Tesla has said the GF will use a new chemistry
-There will be Tesla Energy product shipments this year, but volumes will pick up in 2016 as the first GF production comes on line
-I find it somewhat unlikely that Tesla would sell Tesla Energy products now, which we know do not have GF cells in them, with a different chemistry than what the GF will produce and go into the products in less than a year... it's possible but I think unlikely. I realize there have been various versions of the battery packs in the Model S, but I don't believe they've had different energy density.
-if the above is correct, Tesla Energy is going to be shipping products this year with cells from Panasonic with a new chemistry... so, why not Panasonic cells for a larger S/X pack? Comes down to how nimbly they can transition existing lines at Panasonic to manage the allocation of falling old chemistry cells, rising new chemistry cells, and various Model S and Model X offerings.

fwiw, on the last earnings call, Tesla said either the 10 kWh or the 7 kWh pack was using cells like the vehicles. I do not recall if they explicitly said the same cells, or just suggested they were similar. Of course, the transcript is available if you want to look into it.
 
I'd be quite surprised if a bigger battery comes out for the X without one virtually immediately being offered for the S, for the very reason (undermining Model S sales) you mentioned.

Have to keep in mind that the X needs a larger battery for the same range. Not sure if an X with larger battery but same range would undermine Model S demand.

The transitioning to a new chemistry you describe makes a lot of sense to me.
 
Have to keep in mind that the X needs a larger battery for the same range. Not sure if an X with larger battery but same range would undermine Model S demand.

IMO, ^^^^^this^^^^ is the reason for much of the delay and I think it is now solved with the 70D fleet building in size as a 'test' of the new cell. It may also mean TM is battery constrained again as Panasonic ramps up production of the higher density cell in an effort to get enough output to support the X launch and ramp at a faster pace than the S.
 
I'm 99% sure the "hybrid" type of pack JHM describes will never happen. As energy density improves cycle life becomes less important, i.e. a 400 mile pack only needs to cycle 1000 times to hit 400,000 miles while a 200 mile pack needs to cycle 2000 times to do the same.
 
I'm 99% sure the "hybrid" type of pack JHM describes will never happen. As energy density improves cycle life becomes less important, i.e. a 400 mile pack only needs to cycle 1000 times to hit 400,000 miles while a 200 mile pack needs to cycle 2000 times to do the same.

I agree-
although when SuperCapacitors come online- a SupCap-Battery hybrid would be likely imo. (detail discussion for another thread though)
 
Have to keep in mind that the X needs a larger battery for the same range. Not sure if an X with larger battery but same range would undermine Model S demand.

The transitioning to a new chemistry you describe makes a lot of sense to me.

hobbes, you're right that Tesla could go with a bigger battery in the X than the S and try to get the message across that the S has basically the same range. They could try to do this, but I think it would be hard for this not to hurt demand. Not only would they have to get that equal S/X range message across, they'd also have to make it very clear that a new bigger pack for the S will not happen for quite some time, or there will be a segment of buyers who defer on an S purchase even if they understand the current S range is just as good as the X. It is possible supply constraints of a new cell for a bigger pack leaves Tesla no choice but to do this, but I think it's more likely that they are timing the reveal of new products (X, bigger pack S) to when supply is sufficient to avoid doing this.

While I may be overestimating how much coming out with a bigger X pack, but not one for the S causes people to defer orders, 1) it's an unknown risk worth avoiding if the cost of avoiding it is not too high and 2) I don't think there's much of any disputing that a bigger S pack being offered would lift sales.

Tying this all back to point of this thread, I think it's considerably higher than 50% likely that we see an improved Model S product, one I don't think the market is anticipating, announced within three months, quite possibly within 5 weeks.
 
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