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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2014

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Great....You guys (and you too Bonnie) are killing me:wink:. I would really like a chance to be at the X reveal (check out the 3rd row/convince my wife it would serve us better than an AWD S....she being a 'hater of the falcon doors':mad:) but it initially looked like this was going to be AWD S/DA only so I have not altered/made plans to attend. In DaveT terms I put the chance of a model X reveal at 10-20%........now I am thinking there is a 50% chance.......Decisions...Decisions......

In addition: Now I don't know whether to add to my weekly calls or buy some puts:confused:

i think they are alluding to a reveal of the Model 3 concept car. Even though it's 2-3 years from production they revealed both the S and X concept cars 2-3 years before production too. That would be amazing, but I'm not getting my hopes up as I thought that was maybe going to be at the Detroit show....but as I think this through it seems very feasible that they will release the Model 3 concept car next week and wait for the X Beta to be in Detroit.
the stock will really pop on this news if the Model 3 concept comes out Thurs night, I would guess we pop 10-20% possibly to 300+ on Friday if ths happens
 
i think they are alluding to a reveal of the Model 3 concept car. Even though it's 2-3 years from production they revealed both the S and X concept cars 2-3 years before production too. That would be amazing, but I'm not getting my hopes up as I thought that was maybe going to be at the Detroit show....but as I think this through it seems very feasible that they will release the Model 3 concept car next week and wait for the X Beta to be in Detroit.
the stock will really pop on this news if the Model 3 concept comes out Thurs night, I would guess we pop 10-20% possibly to 300+ on Friday if ths happens

I think Bonnie is basically saying she thinks it's going to be more significant news than "just" a dual-motor Model S. It needs to be significant enough to justify the large crowds they are inviting. I have mixed thoughts on this. I was at the battery swap event last year (at the Hawthorne design center) and there was probably about 500-1000 people there, including press at a press conference afterwards. I also was there at the coast-to-coast send-off last year and it was a significantly smaller event, maybe 150-200 people total. I think Tesla could hold an event just for the dual-motor Model S with 500-1000 people, especially if there was something really cool to show (i.e., 3.5 second 0-60mph time). But I think the key is Tesla probably would want to show something physically. So if it was just dual-motor and the only difference was the "d" at the end of the P85 sign at the back of the door, then I don't think Tesla would hold an event like this.

I am a bit surprised by the number of people receiving invites. If it's an event for over 1000 people, then yes I'd agree with Bonnie that there's more than "just" a dual-motor Model S. I'd probably say it'll be the Model X beta (production design). I don't think it's going to be the Model 3, since I think the folks at Tesla have been too busy with Model X to find enough time to finish a Model S prototype. But that's just my two cents. It seems that Bonnie is confident that the party will be fairly big and that the size of the event justifies more than just a dual-motor Model S. My question is what is a "big party"? Is it 500-1000 people like the battery swap event? Or are we talking a lot more people?
 
I doubt it has anything to do with SpaceX or their facility. The Tesla Design Center (with the curved roof) is located on the "campus" of SpaceX, right next to the airport, but it's a Tesla facility, with lots of real Tesla employees working on design there. I would be shocked if this event is not inside the Design Center like the X reveal and the battery-swap-demo events were.
 
i think they are alluding to a reveal of the Model 3 concept car. Even though it's 2-3 years from production they revealed both the S and X concept cars 2-3 years before production too. That would be amazing, but I'm not getting my hopes up as I thought that was maybe going to be at the Detroit show....but as I think this through it seems very feasible that they will release the Model 3 concept car next week and wait for the X Beta to be in Detroit.
the stock will really pop on this news if the Model 3 concept comes out Thurs night, I would guess we pop 10-20% possibly to 300+ on Friday if ths happens
Well, getting back to the 'short term price thread', this would make me feel a little better if I miss a big reveal since I bought some Oct 18th 300 calls (100 of them) for less than .10 each last week....
 
I think its going to be a BIG event. In significance and attendance.
I got an invite (only have S85, no other reservations); as well my friend (a non-owner) who only went for a test drive a year ago.
Called Tesla Sales for directions, and was told its going to be at the Design Studio (just head for the Hawthorne SC I was told).
How long is the event? He said it could be 'an all night affair', and said 'it won't hurt' when I joked should I bring my checkbook (!).
 
Well, getting back to the 'short term price thread', this would make me feel a little better if I miss a big reveal since I bought some Oct 18th 300 calls (100 of them) for less than .10 each last week....

Smart calculated options play, I would guess a 25% chance of the Model 3 concept car reveal on the 9th and if so then I would say another 25% chance the price pops significantly over 300 to 310 perhaps (before another pull back of course). I would say that gives you a 6.25% chance in getting a 100 bagger from that 0.10 cent purchase. Good luck as I may try something similar.

I have a feeling the hype like what we are talking about is leaking out over the weekend and the stock could open 10 higher Monday even...Do you want to sell me 50 of your options for 20 cents over-the-counter-style? Ha, jk...if there was a way to do it I probably would though if you agreed.
 
Smart calculated options play, I would guess a 25% chance of the Model 3 concept car reveal on the 9th and if so then I would say another 25% chance the price pops significantly over 300 to 310 perhaps (before another pull back of course). I would say that gives you a 6.25% chance in getting a 100 bagger from that 0.10 cent purchase. Good luck as I may try something similar.

I have a feeling the hype like what we are talking about is leaking out over the weekend and the stock could open 10 higher Monday even...Do you want to sell me 50 of your options for 20 cents over-the-counter-style? Ha, jk...if there was a way to do it I probably would though if you agreed.

To complete the story, I actually had 200 contracts, but when the 'event news' broke and they more than doubles I sold half at .25 to take profit and let the rest ride. If it does go to 300 it will be bitter sweet.
Most of my TSLA money is in my IRA, including the options, or I would be glad to peel 10 off for you.:wink:
 
Am I the only one who sees the gap here? With the Models S and X, Tesla will have two great vehicles in the $81k to $120k range. In 3-4 years, the Model 3 will be a great car in the $40k to $60k range. My question is, when will they have a great car in the $60k to $80k range? This is a pretty big oversight to me. It leaves the door wide open for the likes of BMW to beat them to it, not that the i3 is anywhere up to the task.

IMO, Tesla needs to show they can make a really great $65k car. Does it really make sense to put this off until after the Model 3? If Tesla can't make a really great $65k car that generates enough cash flow to support building towards mass market cars, why should we believe the Model 3 will be rewarding to shareholders? Will the Model 3 only exist due to cross-subsidization from Models S and X? If so, it may be a disaster for the stock. So prove to me Tesla can build a profitable $65k car.
 
So prove to me Tesla can build a profitable $65k car.

The S60 is $62,500 (after federal tax credit). Of course there are other fees like destination charges, sales tax, options, etc.

Also the Model 3 average sales price will likely be $50k (ie, bigger battery pack, options). A fully loaded Model 3 will likely be over $70k (comparable to the BMW M3).
 
The original Model S was offered in 40kWh, 60kWh, 85kWh and Performance 85kWh. Due to the success of the Model S launch, the 40Wh was shelved, Tesla correctly deciding to cater to the higher profit margins for a product in supply constraint. Once Tesla is able to ramp up supply with demand for the model S 60-85- P85 (still a couple of years away), there is no reason they can't reintroduce the 40 to attract a different price range of buyers.
Expect the Model X to be approx. $10k above the Model S. The Model III will start in the high $30k and fully tricked out will run up to the pricing of $71k (without incentives) of the Model S. There is no need for an intermediate model between Model S and III, certainly not this early in the game.
 
Wow, since Elon's tease tweet, teasweet for short, it seems like everyone has come back to TMC forum to join in the fun. There is some hilarious reporting out in the field, with speculation the D refers to a Diesel model and a model that runs on standard D size batteries. Most people still have no idea about Tesla and think they can research a company for 15 minutes and understand what they are all about. I'm with Dave T (and most Teslites) on the dual motors, AWD Model S and advanced driving technology.
I would love to see the production Model X at the October 9th event and confirmation they are on track for early 2015 deliveries. Hoping this is the "something else".
I would be disappointed if the Model III prototype was revealed this early. Some things are worth waiting for, and this is one of them. This would give the competition (yes, I know, just couldn't find a better word) too much advance notice of Tesla's styling cues, for a car that is still 2 1/2 years away from mass production. Best save for the 2015 Detroit Auto Show.

Long Tesla and all EVs, bring'em on.
 
Am I the only one who sees the gap here? With the Models S and X, Tesla will have two great vehicles in the $81k to $120k range. In 3-4 years, the Model 3 will be a great car in the $40k to $60k range. My question is, when will they have a great car in the $60k to $80k range? This is a pretty big oversight to me. It leaves the door wide open for the likes of BMW to beat them to it, not that the i3 is anywhere up to the task.

IMO, Tesla needs to show they can make a really great $65k car. Does it really make sense to put this off until after the Model 3? If Tesla can't make a really great $65k car that generates enough cash flow to support building towards mass market cars, why should we believe the Model 3 will be rewarding to shareholders? Will the Model 3 only exist due to cross-subsidization from Models S and X? If so, it may be a disaster for the stock. So prove to me Tesla can build a profitable $65k car.

Tesla has stated that Model 3 will have a crossover counterpart. I'm sure there will be performance oriented Model 3 that will stretch to the 50-60k range.
 
The S60 is $62,500 (after federal tax credit). Of course there are other fees like destination charges, sales tax, options, etc.

Also the Model 3 average sales price will likely be $50k (ie, bigger battery pack, options). A fully loaded Model 3 will likely be over $70k (comparable to the BMW M3).

I don't think the elasticity of the MIII will approach MS-X
Although the median price may be $50k, the average will be below $45 imo (assuming an actual start price at $35k 200mi range)
 
The S60 is $62,500 (after federal tax credit). Of course there are other fees like destination charges, sales tax, options, etc.

Also the Model 3 average sales price will likely be $50k (ie, bigger battery pack, options). A fully loaded Model 3 will likely be over $70k (comparable to the BMW M3).

First, the federal tax credit is only available to US customers, and it says very little of Tesla if the only way it can make a compelling $65k car is through government assistance. Does anyone believe the S60 is a great value for the price of $71000? I have argued that it would be a great value at $61000. If Tesla were to lower the price of the S60 (without appeal to special government incentives) to $65000, then that would give me the proof I am calling for.

Second, if the destiny of the Model 3 is to fill the $50k to $80k space through loading on of all sorts of pricey options, then we really should dispense with all this talk of it being an affordable car for the mass market. Consider what happened with the S40. IIRC, it was originally priced at $59k. It was supposed to show that Tesla could deliver something with a degree of affordability. But buyers were not convinced that it was a really great value for the price, and of course supply for the whole line was quite constrained for many understandable reasons. It was right for Tesla to pull the S40 because at that time Tesla truly did not have the capability to deliver a compeling and profitable Model S for under $60k. They needed to build both capacity and cash flow before that could be a reality. So let's suppose that in 2017 Tesla starts to take orders for the Model 3 at three major price points with the base model starting at the magic price of $34,950. How many customers will order that when the larger batter versions look like a much better value for the money? How profitable will the base version be considering the opportunity cost of capacity and supply constraints? Will history repeat itself? Will the base vesion of Model 3 be dropped just as fast as the S40? The question is not whether Tesla can make a profitable business of selling fully loaded Model 3s in the $50k to $80k range. The question is whether they really be capable of delivering a compelling and profitable car in the $35k to $50k range. The problem as I see it is not that batteries will be too expensive. I'm satisfied that the Gigafactory will handle that. The problems is whether they have the automotive manufacturing capability.

My theory is that only the high end Model 3 versions will really work out at first, just as only the S85 and P85 have worked for the Model S. To get to lower cost versions will take more time to develop the capability. So it make sense to think of launching a model in stages. In the first stage the high end version is released. A year or two later the midlevel version is introduced. Finally another year or two out the low end version is brought to market. So I am advocating the Tesla may well be at a place to make something truly compelling out of the S60. While launching high end Model X versions, Tesla could be proving its chops and gaining customers by building out affordable version of the Model S.

My theory may be tested somewhat with the Model X. Let's suppose that introduce three or more versions, say X70, X90 and X110. My hypothesis is that uptake of the X70 will be questionably low if it is even introduced. Supply will be constrained so that it will make business sense to privilege X110 orders over the others. In particular, the wait time for a X90 will be longer than for the X110, and the X70 will be discontinued. If this theory is correct, then the simpler path may well be to introduce only the X110 at first. Work out the kinks and ramp up capacity. Then roll out the X90. At any rate, that's my theory, and it has testable hypotheses. So let's see how this plays out.
 
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i wonder if tesla regrets offering the supercharger network to the S60 cars. Before you all beat me up, I suspect most buying those had no intention of long distance trips. But even more important if has resulted in a slower build out of supercharger network. The super chargers need to be placed closer together to accommodate the S60s hence more need to be built out. Imagine if S40 had option so many more would have had to be built to accommodate
 
First, the federal tax credit is only available to US customers, and it says very little of Tesla if the only way it can make a compelling $65k car is through government assistance. Does anyone believe the S60 is a great value for the price of $71000? I have argued that it would be a great value at $61000. If Tesla were to lower the price of the S60 (without appeal to special government incentives) to $65000, then that would give me the proof I am calling for.

Second, if the destiny of the Model 3 is to fill the $50k to $80k space through loading on of all sorts of pricey options, then we really should dispense with all this talk of it being an affordable car for the mass market. Consider what happened with the S40. IIRC, it was originally priced at $59k. It was supposed to show that Tesla could deliver something with a degree of affordability. But buyers were not convinced that it was a really great value for the price, and of course supply for the whole line was quite constrained for many understandable reasons. It was right for Tesla to pull the S40 because at that time Tesla truly did not have the capability to deliver a compeling and profitable Model S for under $60k. They needed to build both capacity and cash flow before that could be a reality. So let's suppose that in 2017 Tesla starts to take orders for the Model 3 at three major price points with the base model starting at the magic price of $34,950. How many customers will order that when the larger batter versions look like a much better value for the money? How profitable will the base version be considering the opportunity cost of capacity and supply constraints? Will history repeat itself? Will the base vesion of Model 3 be dropped just as fast as the S40? The question is not whether Tesla can make a profitable business of selling fully loaded Model 3s in the $50k to $80k range. The question is whether they really be capable of delivering a compelling and profitable car in the $35k to $50k range. The problem as I see it is not that batteries will be too expensive. I'm satisfied that the Gigafactory will handle that. The problems is whether they have the automotive manufacturing capability.

My theory is that only the high end Model 3 versions will really work out at first, just as only the S85 and P85 have worked for the Model S. To get to lower cost versions will take more time to develop the capability. So it make sense to think of launching a model in stages. In the first stage the high end version is released. A year or two later the midlevel version is introduced. Finally another year or two out the low end version is brought to market. So I am advocating the Tesla may well be at a place to make something truly compelling out of the S60. While launching high end Model X versions, Tesla could be proving its chops and gaining customers by building out affordable version of the Model S.

My theory may be tested somewhat with the Model X. Let's suppose that introduce three or more versions, say X70, X90 and X110. My hypothesis is that uptake of the X70 will be questionably low if it is even introduced. Supply will be constrained so that it will make business sense to privilege X110 orders over the others. In particular, the wait time for a X90 will be longer than for the X110, and the X70 will be discontinued. If this theory is correct, then the simpler path may well be to introduce only the X110 at first. Work out the kinks and ramp up capacity. Then roll out the X90. At any rate, that's my theory, and it has testable hypotheses. So let's see how this plays out.

Generally, I agree that a lower-priced Model S would make the car more appealing to a lot more people. I've often thought if they just included Supercharging in the standard S60, then even that would make the S60 more appealing than it is now. By the time you add Supercharging then you're only $8k away from the 85kWh (and you get the tire upgrade with the 85kWh car).

Taking it a step further, if the S60 was $60k and included Supercharging... oh my, the demand would be off the chart. (But then again, it doesn't seem like demand is a problem for Tesla currently.)

The biggest challenge is that the S60 is Tesla's lowest margin car. If they're averaging 27-28% gross margin across their cars, I'd imagine they make less than 20% gross margin on the 60kWh version. So, it doesn't make sense for them to lower the price of their lowest margin product.

Over time as battery prices come down and Tesla gets more efficient in manufacturing, the S60 will cost less and less to manufacture and Tesla would have the option of lowering the price of the car... Or they could just lower the cost of the 85kWh car and get rid of the 60kWh version altogether. Either way, it will be good for demand.

Regarding Model 3, I personally don't look at it initially as an affordable mass market car, just like I don't look at the BMW 3 series as an affordable mass market car. A BMW 328i decently-optioned runs $40-50k, and that's out of reach for the masses. The Model 3 (just like the BMW 3 series) will be an entry level compact luxury sports sedan. It will be more affordable and more mass-market than the Model S, but not truly affordable and mass-market like a Camry/Accord. Also, initially Tesla will have a difficult time making good margin on the $35k base model and they probably will offer incentives for people to choose the larger battery pack (ie., free supercharging, tire upgrade, etc). But over time, as economies of scale improves and battery cell prices come down, Tesla will make better and better margin on the Model 3 base model and that will allow them to make it more compelling (ie., increase range or lower price).
 
Regarding Model 3, I personally don't look at it initially as an affordable mass market car, just like I don't look at the BMW 3 series as an affordable mass market car. A BMW 328i decently-optioned runs $40-50k, and that's out of reach for the masses. The Model 3 (just like the BMW 3 series) will be an entry level compact luxury sports sedan. It will be more affordable and more mass-market than the Model S, but not truly affordable and mass-market like a Camry/Accord. Also, initially Tesla will have a difficult time making good margin on the $35k base model and they probably will offer incentives for people to choose the larger battery pack (ie., free supercharging, tire upgrade, etc). But over time, as economies of scale improves and battery cell prices come down, Tesla will make better and better margin on the Model 3 base model and that will allow them to make it more compelling (ie., increase range or lower price).

That's probably true, but really just a definition of the term mass market affordable right? If that is a Camry/Civic level, Tesla won't be able to produce that demand for many years. So maybe the terminology is a meaningless marker for reference. Tesla could stop at GEN III and be hugely succesful. Currently a GENIV has no objective merit of investment until Tesla(Elon) makes it part of his commitment. Further if all costs are considered, a $35k EV operationally may come close enough to that to serve the tesla objective. I'd advise investors not to place that into the projected scenario at this time and I don't belive the market will either, nor does it need to do so for the foreseeable future. I would caution against placing a projection of that scenario into the investment thesis at this time
 
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