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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Funny that those Poles who haven't voted PiS don't have these issues. Neither have the huge number of Poles who are living in Germany. Poland is never too proud to ask for German money, though.
Finally, Poland is the biggest recipient of EU transfer payments, yet it has never show any solidarity with anyone until it had a raging fire in its own front yard all of a sudden.
If you had any idea of history you would also know that the Poles weren't the first ones to rebel against Soviet rule.
I was there... thanks very much I could but can’t write a very interesting history on what did happen in some countries. The fall started there, finished of course with Romania. Now we witness the next chapter. Freeing the Ukrainian peopls.
 
1. The statistical analysis is of both Ukraine and Russian tank losses, so who is operating the tanks is irrelevant.
2. It is worth reading both the analysis itself, and the subsequent comments and linked report.
3. There is some evidence that it is not the autoloader that is the direct design/operations issue.

I read about half when you first posted it and read the whole thing now. Their conclusion was that it's the ammunition out there in the open in the autoloader that's the problem combined with the two part ammunition used in the more recent tanks. The T-62 has one piece ammunition and the later tanks use a separate shell and powder bag. The powder bags are more susceptible to burning embers in the turret than a single charge shell package inside a metal casing. The rounds in the T-62 are also stored separately in a steel rack so there is some separation between them.

Ultimately I think it all boils down to the autoloader design.

..... wow !!!! 800 !!! ....

View attachment 900653

Russian losses have been climbing. They are losing close to 6K troops a week now. What I found interesting was the losses for January 27
https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2023...osses-of-the-enemy-from-24-02-22-to-27-01-23/


The total combat losses of the enemy from 24.02.22 to 27.01.23​

2023-01-27 08:30:00 | ID: 69064

The total combat losses of the enemy from 24.02.22 to 27.01.23 were approximately:
personnel ‒ about 124710 (+850) persons were liquidated,
tanks ‒ 3182 (+7),
APV ‒ 6340 (+6),
artillery systems – 2180 (+11),
MLRS – 452 (+0),
Anti-aircraft warfare systems ‒ 221 (+1),
aircraft – 292 (+0),
helicopters – 283 (+1) ,
UAV operational-tactical level – 1941 (+33),
cruise missiles ‒ 796 (+47),
warships / boats ‒ 18 (+0) ,
vehicles and fuel tanks – 5001 (+15) ,
special equipment ‒ 199 (+4).

33 drones and 47 cruise missiles in one day. That's quite a haul!

Good to see the Russians are having problems with inflation too. :)

Balloon tanks may have worked a treat for Patton/US in early '44, but not so much in the age of modern spy says. It didn't always work great in WW2 either. In one case the Germans built an elaborate faux base and just as they were putting on the finishing touches some British bomber pilots dropped a couple loads of wooden bombs on it with choice handwritten messages. Funny stuff.

The inflatable tanks and other things were part of the elaborate deception to convince the Germans that Patton would be leading the invasion forces and the invasion would be at Pas-de-Calais and not Normandy.

It's easier to pull off the ruse of inflatable tanks if the enemy doesn't really have the ability to hit those tanks. The Ukrainians can drop artillery on the inflatable tanks and demonstrate they are not real with ease.

You can't judge a wartime economy by these metrics. I've said it from the start. Russian standard of living is in decline, but it doesn't affect their ability to wage war.

It does affect their ability to wage war to some extent. Wartime economies can pull measures to keep going despite economic hardships, but sanctions make getting imported parts harder and if the country is unable to make money from international trade, they don't have anything others want to buy imported material they need. Russia's ability to make high precision missiles and other high tech weaponry is been hurt badly. They are still able to make dumb ammunition, but their ability to expand production has been hurt.

To make ammunition requires either a chemical industry or easy access to someone else's chemical industry. In WW II the USSR was heavily dependent on the US chemical industry. A lot of ink has been spilled over Russian artillery in WW II, but in reality the Germans fired more weight of artillery than the Russians until late 1944. Russians favored small charge artillery rounds over longer range, large charge rounds because they didn't have the chemical industry to make enough larger charges. The bulk of Russian artillery for most of the war were short range mortars rather than the heavy guns.

Expanding a chemical industry is expensive and takes time. The USSR had built up an extensive chemical industry by the late 80s, but most of it was in republics that broke away in the early 90s. Quite a bit of it was in Ukraine. The Russians have gotten by buying the chemicals they need from the former republics, and have built up some domestic production, but it's a fraction of what the old USSR had. Russia's biggest chemical plant making material for ammunition had a huge fire last spring. It's probably producing chemicals again at this point, but we don't know at what capacity. They were reliant on Germany for most of their industrial equipment before the war and their access to that is gone.

Perun had a video on wartime economies

The damage to Russia's economy is severe. Sanctions don't tend to destabilize governments, but a government on a wartime footing requiring a lot of sacrifices from the public who are also losing a war everyone thinks they should have won easily can be destabilizing. Hurting their ability to make war goods as much as possible contributes to this.

I can't think of any time a country's economy collapsed during wartime, but there are many times collapse happened immediately after a war ended. The more severe the wartime hardships, the bigger the potential collapse. The economic conditions of the peace contribute to the situation in the aftermath too. If trading partners come rushing back in to do peacetime business, the economy after the war usually bounces back fairly quickly, but if the country has become a pariah state and nobody wants to do business with them after the war, the economic hardships after the war can be pretty bad.

Russia is not going to fare very well after this war. If the country breaks up, a number of the breakaway republics with resources to sell may do quite well, but the Moscow-St Petersburg Russian rump state would probably suffer a long term economic malaise that could last decades.
 
The inflatable tanks and other things were part of the elaborate deception to convince the Germans that Patton would be leading the invasion forces and the invasion would be at Pas-de-Calais and not Normandy.

Yup, Patton wasn't initially pleased to be leading a ghost army in operation Quicksilver, but it was extremely well executed and effective. He went on to glory with his Third Army in Normandy and beyond, so it all worked out for him (and the world) in the end. Well, until his unfortunate jeep accident anyhow.
 
Historically it wasn’t uncommon to have economic matters force an end to wars. Even as recently as wwI only England and France and the USA had the and the ability to sustain another year of war and that only from American loans. Germany was kaput and was swept by revolution due in no small part to economic ruin and hardship. The war was over that year regardless. Austria has already collapsed. Turkey crushed. This has been a low grade conflict compared to WWI and Russia has a brilliant central banker so they are in far better shape than they could have been.
 
Historically it wasn’t uncommon to have economic matters force an end to wars. Even as recently as wwI only England and France and the USA had the and the ability to sustain another year of war and that only from American loans. Germany was kaput and was swept by revolution due in no small part to economic ruin and hardship. The war was over that year regardless. Austria has already collapsed. Turkey crushed. This has been a low grade conflict compared to WWI and Russia has a brilliant central banker so they are in far better shape than they could have been.
Yeah, if Elvira Nabiullina was able to successfully quit, Russia's economic situation would likely have been a lot worse. She really did a great job with what she was given.
 
Historically it wasn’t uncommon to have economic matters force an end to wars. Even as recently as wwI only England and France and the USA had the and the ability to sustain another year of war and that only from American loans. Germany was kaput and was swept by revolution due in no small part to economic ruin and hardship. The war was over that year regardless. Austria has already collapsed. Turkey crushed. This has been a low grade conflict compared to WWI and Russia has a brilliant central banker so they are in far better shape than they could have been.

They rebellions going on in Germany is what really brought them down. The economic chaos contributed to the unrest. WW I was pretty much a classic war of attrition on a grand scale. The allies wore down the Central Powers over time.

An interesting article from The Spectator
Russia wants to bleed Ukraine dry before its tanks arrive

"General Gerasimov, now directly running operations in Ukraine, is pushing for offensive operations to try and draw Ukraine’s reserves into defensive fighting and therefore remove their ability to prepare for offensive operations. The Russians are hoping that if they bleed out Ukraine’s better units now they will hold onto the territory they have seized. For the next couple of months at least Ukraine must avoid these threats with the equipment it already fields."

I don't think the Ukrainians are throwing their better units into the fight. The best units are currently getting western training for the coming offensive. The Ukrainians army has grown to 1.5 million people. The quality and training of units ranges from Territorial Guard Units who had no training at the start of the war and now have some training, but are not that well trained on up to units that have been through NATO training schools in the UK and Germany and are completely up to date on the latest NATO tactics.

The weapons given to the different units varies a lot too. AFU has such a weird array of weapons that they can prioritize who gets what. A lot of the video appearing on Telegram and other social media is from the Territorial Guard units. The better trained units aren't telling the world what they're doing. A lot of the lesser trained units are holding the line in places like Bakhmut now.

What I see with this Russian strategy is like an inexperienced chess player who is trying to take out as many of their opponent's pieces as they can without paying attention to the fact they are trading pieces 2:1 in their opponent's favor.

Russia does have a larger population than Ukraine, but Russia has a lot of problems Ukraine doesn't. Russia has to manufacture any new weapons of ammunition they are bringing to the war. Ukraine is getting freebies from their friends and don't need to run a full scale war production economy. Russia also needs to keep their national economy going because they are pretty much on their own with only a few weak allies. Ukraine's economy is being propped up by their friends.

Additionally Ukraine is taking large number of women into their military which gives them more fighters or if not all fighting, they are taking jobs that free up more men for fighting (I know there are women who are on the front lines, but most of the women in the AFU are serving in support roles). The USSR was the only power in WW II to have a fair number of women in combat roles, but the modern Russian army is all men.

Ukraine has a better education system than Russia which makes the common soldier better quality. Russia draws most of their conscripts from the rural parts of Russia where poverty is severe, education is especially poor, and in a lot of ways modern technology has not penetrated to that stratum of society. Just about every Ukrainian has decent, basic computer skills or better. Ukraine is also a culture of tinkerers, so most soldiers are out there fashioning things to help them and their fellows. Rural Russia doesn't have that tinkering thing and they are mostly only interested in where their next drink is coming from.

The needs to keep the home economy going reduces the population that can be mobilized in Russia. So does the male only nature of the army.

On offense against an army of roughly equal technology, the attacker needs to bring at least a 2:1 advantage in unit strength to have even a poor chance of succeeding. If the enemy is dug in, closer to 4 or 5:1 is needed. The Russians have gained some small gains by locally putting a lot more men in the field in Soledar and Bakhmut, but Ukraine didn't meet the Russian raise and chose to surrender some ground instead because Ukraine doesn't want to commit it's forces that are being prepared for the offensive and the people playing defense are good enough for what is needed right now.

Russia doesn't have the available population to get to enough to take Ukraine at this point. They can overwhelm a local defense by going all in to take some worthless village, but they are paying a steep price for each kilometer of ground. Russia is losing 800 dead a day on average now. This has been going on more or less steadily for weeks. 800 men is the size of a BTG, though it appear Russia has mostly abandoned that unit structure at this point.

But a BTG is a convenient measure. Russia started the war with about 190 BTGs committed and about 250 total in the entire army. The Russians are also taking losses from non-combat injuries like frostbite, people falling off trucks and breaking a leg, etc. There are also non-combat losses such as alcohol related deaths (alcohol fueled fights among the men are common), hypothermia, traffic accidents, etc. And from combat they are probably having a number of wounded who are going to be out of the fight permanently due to serious wounds. In a western army and in the Ukrainian army that's a couple of times the dead, but in the Russian army they are so bad at evacuating wounded that it may only be 1:1.

Between cold injuries, other non-combat injuries and deaths, and seriously wounded, they are probably losing another 800-1600 a day. That's up to 3 BTGs a day. And it's been going on pretty steadily since late November. If say only 2 BTGs a day for two months, that's 120 BTGs of 2/3 of the force they start the war with. That's not counting the heavy losses they had before November which amounted to most of the force they started the war with.

Even if the Russians can tolerate losses to the same level as the Japanese in WW II who would fight down to the last man in fanatical fashion, their forces were still gutted. An army of 0 fanatical Banzai warriors may be fierce, but it's also non-existent. And the Russians aren't as fanatical as the Japanese were.

What's happening to the Russian army right now is very similar to what happened in 1917. They kept the army in the field and their industry was actually keeping up with supply, but the army reached a point where they were just done with all the pointless losses and they rebelled. It started off small, as rebellions often do, but it quickly grew to encompass most of the Tsar's army. At that point Russia had to sue for peace because the army refused to fight and the rebellion was coming back home.

Ukraine has virtually no chance of a morale collapse. Everyone knows what they are fighting for and why. They know if they stop, Ukraine ceases to exist. It's a very simple message.

Russians are less clear what they are fighting for. Moscow keeps coming up with new reasons, but none of them are all that great. Ultimately the army is there because Putin wants to take Ukraine and nothing more. It's obvious to anyone on the front in Ukraine that the Ukrainians are not all that pleased with that notion.

Russia faces the real prospect of a rebellion in the ranks. Especially if they keep up this strategy of trying to drain the Ukrainian army by getting their own people killed.
 
I read about half when you first posted it and read the whole thing now. Their conclusion was that it's the ammunition out there in the open in the autoloader that's the problem combined with the two part ammunition used in the more recent tanks. The T-62 has one piece ammunition and the later tanks use a separate shell and powder bag. The powder bags are more susceptible to burning embers in the turret than a single charge shell package inside a metal casing. The rounds in the T-62 are also stored separately in a steel rack so there is some separation between them.

Ultimately I think it all boils down to the autoloader design.
mmm.......

The way I read it is that the balance of probabilities is that in the T72-onwards the ammunition in the crew compartment but outside the autoloader is what goes up, and that once that detonates (or conflagrates) that in turn triggers the autoloader ammunition. I think by then it is somewhat irrelevant as to whether the autoloader ammunition subsequently goes up because by then the crew is dead and the tank destroyed. The point that the Russians/etc are making in their analysis is that the autoloader ammunition is actually quite well protected (at least excepting top-attack munitions) so something else is the causal pathway for the majority of the losses. In contrast the T62 ammunition has what appears to be just enough stowage protection to prevent most of the chain reactions. After the conflict there can be a more forensic examination of the evidence to understand precisely what is going on.

I don't think this is going to make a difference during 2023 mind you. And by then we may also have further data on how the Western MBT fleet performs to provide a comparison. This will in turn inform the next generation of MBT designs that are in study at the moment.
 
mmm.......

The way I read it is that the balance of probabilities is that in the T72-onwards the ammunition in the crew compartment but outside the autoloader is what goes up, and that once that detonates (or conflagrates) that in turn triggers the autoloader ammunition. I think by then it is somewhat irrelevant as to whether the autoloader ammunition subsequently goes up because by then the crew is dead and the tank destroyed. The point that the Russians/etc are making in their analysis is that the autoloader ammunition is actually quite well protected (at least excepting top-attack munitions) so something else is the causal pathway for the majority of the losses. In contrast the T62 ammunition has what appears to be just enough stowage protection to prevent most of the chain reactions. After the conflict there can be a more forensic examination of the evidence to understand precisely what is going on.

I don't think this is going to make a difference during 2023 mind you. And by then we may also have further data on how the Western MBT fleet performs to provide a comparison. This will in turn inform the next generation of MBT designs that are in study at the moment.

This article describes there being nothing between the crew and the autoloader ammunition
Why Do Russian Tanks Explode Violently When Hit?

I saw a better analysis somewhere else but I can't find it now.

The Chieftain is an armor expert did this interview about the reason T-72s lose their turrets. He revealed something I didn't know about the T-72, it only carries half its ammunition in the autoloader cassette below the turret. The other 22 rounds are stored in the turret with no protection at all. The Russians identified this weakness and built in protection for some of these rounds into the T-90, though not all are protected.

Storing 22 rounds of ammunition and charge bags with no protection at all around the turret is a tragedy waiting to happen.

This is a plastic model build of a T-72 with interior.
Build review Pt I: 1/35th scale T-72AV Full Interior from Amusing Hobby

There are some models out there that can be very educational for learning how stuff works (or worked).
 
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Stars and bars.
Just so you know, Stars and Bars was the original nickname of the flag of the Confederate States after their secession. Probably best to stick to Stars and Stripes when referencing the US.

I'm glad the US will send planes. Now everyone in this thread can make the transition from tank expert to fighter jet expert.
 
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Just so you know, Stars and Bars was the original nickname of the flag of the Confederate States after their succession. Probably best to stick to Stars and Stripes when referencing the US.

I'm glad the US will send planes. Now everyone in this thread can make the transition from tank expert to fighter jet expert.

Yes, that was an unfortunate goof on my part. Fixed. I'm also looking forward to seeing F-16s annihilate Russian aircraft and invasion forces in the near future!
 
This article describes there being nothing between the crew and the autoloader ammunition
Why Do Russian Tanks Explode Violently When Hit?

I saw a better analysis somewhere else but I can't find it now.

The Chieftain is an armor expert did this interview about the reason T-72s lose their turrets. He revealed something I didn't know about the T-72, it only carries half its ammunition in the autoloader cassette below the turret. The other 22 rounds are stored in the turret with no protection at all. The Russians identified this weakness and built in protection for some of these rounds into the T-90, though not all are protected.

Storing 22 rounds of ammunition and charge bags with no protection at all around the turret is a tragedy waiting to happen.

This is a plastic model build of a T-72 with interior.
Build review Pt I: 1/35th scale T-72AV Full Interior from Amusing Hobby

There are some models out there that can be very educational for learning how stuff works (or worked).
That analysis I linked to, and the comments in it, and the Russian report it cites, all point out that there is ammo stored unprotected all over the inside of the T72/etc crew compartment, clipped into racks in every nook & cranny. It also points out that the best protected ammo within the crew compartment is the stuff in the autoloader. The working hypothesis is that the clipped ammo is what in turn sets off the T72/etc autoloader ammo.

So who does the thread think is going to take the lead on supplying the 2 battalions of jets to Ukraine?
USA authorising NL seems to be the rumour out there.